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Barack Obama
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Rob Kailey is a working schmuck with no ties or affiliations to any governmental or political organizations, save those of sympathy.

Guns and states and Obama

by: Jay Stevens

Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 21:44:07 PM MST


So some time ago I wrote a piece for the Guardian about how Obama's proposed gun control policies on change.gov might rattle his newly won Western support, and this was one of the comments:

Rustic, outdoorsy Montanans and moose-hunting Alaskans love their guns.
Urban areas blighted by drugs and gangs are, in the main, keener on a measure of gun control.

It's always seemed bizarre to me that the same (usually Republican) political forces in the US which prefer no government to big government, and when they have to have it, prefer local government to state, and state to Federal, should nevertheless battle to the political death to impose universal, Constitutionally-guaranteed, Federal diktats on two big issues: the protection of gun ownership, and the outlawing of non-traditional forms of marriage.

Seems to me these are two issues just crying out for the application of a little federalism....The US is a huge and geographically diverse country, made up of densely-populated urban areas that tend to be more liberal, and a vast, often untamed rural hinterland where more conservative values hold sway.

[snip]

Red and Blue State America are not going to agree on these issues anytime soon. But why is the US trying to decide them Federally? There's no real need for Big Government to get involved - unlike for example broad economic policy, or military expenditure. Gun control (or lack of it) and gay marriage (or lack of it) are the States' business. So why not let the state governments decide the right policy for their own (very diverse) circumstances?

The commenter suggests that the Second Amendment be rewritten to support states setting their own gun control laws, which isn't necessary, because it's already happening. Just ask any gun owner, and they'll tell you the difference between, say, California and Montana law when it comes to storing guns, say. And the SCOTUS' Heller decision, which affirmed that the Constitution protects the rights of individuals to bear arms but left the degree and kind of controls up to future rulings, essentially makes gun control not just a states' rights issue, but a local issue, as municipal and county bodies create their own rules for gun use and ownership.

Still, the comment did lay bare the hypocracy of conservatives' states' rights rhetoric. Not that the conservative movement natually came to states' rights; it was picked up and thrown onto the GOP wagon by Nixon (yes, I just read Nixonland!) to woo Southern Democrats to his side by promising, in code, that his administration wouldn't do much to speed along desegregation in Dixie.

But then states' rights has always been less an ideology and more a useful tool to preserve traditional power structures or to hurry along reforms. In the antebellum South, states' rights was an ideological pretext to preserve slavery. After all, it was the Southern states that wrote and supported the Fugitive Slave Act, which gave the federal government the broadest and most intrusive powers over states up to that date. And today, progressives clamor for states' rights -- grumbling that the federal government is standing in the way of, say, California's strict emissions standards. After all, it's easier to institute reforms in a state that's more inclined toward your ideology than at the federal level, where government is banally corrupt, pro-corporate, and gutless.

Whatever. Back to gun control. Obama's awkward gun control proclamation on change.gov seemed to belie his election promises, in which he tried to explain his views on gun control in context of a states' rights issue. During the election, Obama defended his draconian gun control proposals made in the Illinois state house by saying that the problems of inner-city Chicago are vastly different than Montana's, and that he wouldn't propose any law that would strip Montanans of their guns.

But then, who cares? Any talk of gun control from the Obama administration has to be just that: talk. There's no way he gets it done. As I wrote in the Guardian piece, Obama "would have to spend enormous political capital to get the gun control laws passed - capital he needs for healthcare reform, a new energy policy and economic stimulus packages."

'Nuff ced.

Jay Stevens :: Guns and states and Obama
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So that's where the future of (0.00 / 0)
our Second Amendment lies: on whether or not Obama has the political capital to enact draconian gun laws or not?

As for what you claim re: conservatives and their so-called deviation from state's rights in protecting the second amendment... I had no idea that trying to uphold the constitution was the same as enacting huge federal mandates.  The marriage amendment doesn't do that either, though perhaps it suits you to pretend it does.

Since when are liberals opposed to the Feds mandating things anyway?  You all seem happy enough to do that when we're talking hate crime legislation or forcing censorship on am talk radio.

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


So where do you 2nd amendment crybabies stand (0.00 / 0)
on Bush's gutting the 4th amendment? Especially after doing so with zero political capital after being appointed president by the SCOTUS, and losing the popular vote to Gore by over a half million votes?

If you want to stand up for the Constitution, go all the way, or STFU.


[ Parent ]
Thats my though JC (0.00 / 0)
Any liberal that whined even once about the media driven hysteria that was the never occurring assault on the 4th amendment needs to stand up EVERYTIME Obama threatens the 2nd.  I need constancy.  While I don't love every amendment, mainly by the ones the progressives kicked off (hello 17th and 18th) I respect them all.  If one, just one anti 2nd amendment word comes out of Obama after January 20th I expect nothing else than blog hysteria JC.  I also expect full support of the 10th amendment.  Which means not having federal healthcare, federal education, etc unless its in the constitution.  If its not in the document, STATES RIGHTS.  If you can't support the 10th, then, you obviously can't support the 4th.  Or, do you just repeat everything CNN and MSNBC tells you without thought?

[ Parent ]
Hahahahaha!!! (0.00 / 0)
You expect?  From Blogs?  You expect?!?

Your expectations are way out of line for any rational human being in a supposedly free country.  Get used to disappointment, fascist.

;-)


[ Parent ]
Expect was a strong word =) (0.00 / 0)
I usually expect dissapointment from blogs =)  Under promise, over deliver I guess.  I am just hoping on consistancy;  Violate one amendment, violate them all.

[ Parent ]
Clueless (0.00 / 0)
Since when are liberals opposed to the Feds mandating things anyway?  You all seem happy enough to do that when we're talking hate crime legislation or forcing censorship on am talk radio.

You have no idea what you're writing about, do you Syd?  Liberals are opposed to a lot of things that your Straw Man doesn't recognize.  And the only people wailing about the Fairness Doctrine (inaccurate nomenclature notwithstanding) are a bunch of paranoid, butt-puckered fear mavens like you and Rush Limbaugh.  Clutch your pearls and faint already.  Adults are dealing with issues here.    


[ Parent ]
If Bush said this, would it be racist? (0.00 / 0)
I did notice one thing.  And I know you didn't imply this Touchstone.  But, this for example would trust Montanans with guns, but say not downtown Chicago or California.  Therefor, does this imply to allow guns in predominately white areas, but ban them in areas largely made up of minorities?  Much like the lie that is "Saturday night specials" which was law and language to prevent poor minorities from owning guns, this would be a slippery slope to put guns only in the hands of the rich white.

Check your facts. (0.00 / 0)
Downtown Chicago (and L.A. and New York) have larger percentages of blacks and hispanics than rural communities or states by far.  But to say that these areas are "largely made up of minorities" is pretty much BS.  Unless... the suggested laws are dealing with areas in areas like Compton or specific neighborhoods of south Chicago.  Now that would be pretty racist.  Funny though, that is what you suggest the laws are meant to do, but had nothing to do with Jay's exposition, or any law enacted ever (since southern Jim Crow Laws were repealed.)

Hmm, how does one interpret such things in a post-racial society?   Hmmm ....


[ Parent ]
There just seems to be an undertone (0.00 / 0)
There just seems to be an undertone from the anti-constitution people to me on this Wulfgar.  When people imply its ok for me in Montana to own a gun, but not Chicago.  Why?  The people look a lot different between the two places.  Actually places like Chicago is where people need guns to protect themselves the most.  People claimed New Orleans was a race thing even though a lot more whites died than minorities.  If, God forbid, I have to visit Kalifornia or Chicago.  I don't want to check my constitution at the door.  

[ Parent ]
A thought (0.00 / 0)
Actually places like Chicago is where people need guns to protect themselves the most.

Though I would likely agree with your statement, it strikes me that it assumes a particular use for firearms that is inconsistent with the wording of the 2nd (regardless of comma placement.)  Just sayin ...


[ Parent ]
Your facts about NOLA are wrong (0.00 / 0)
I don't know what your motivation is for attempting some historical revisionism, but according to the Louisiana Dept. of Health & Hospitals, there were 451 African-American deaths to 334 Caucasian deaths. Probably just another attempt to sweep the inept response of Bush & Co. under the rug. And to deny that poverty puts people at risk for natural disasters.

Unfortunately, death statistics aren't even a good way to discuss impacts on different demographic groups in New Orleans. Trying to imply there are no racially derived impacts from Katrina is about as intelligent as trying to imply that because "people look a lot different" in Chicago than in Montana you need a gun to protect yourself.  What an incredibly racist statement.

Actually, most of the anti-constitutionalists in the country will be leaving Washington D.C. with the Bushies. Good riddance. And I hope that if twisters find their way to the city on top of the shining hill, that FEMA has a better plan. Not.


[ Parent ]
Sigh (0.00 / 0)
Sigh, JC.  You couldn't have proved me more right if I wrote your response myself.  The largest travesty of New Orleans was the illegal conviscation of firearms.  Leaving residents to try to fend for themselves.  The tasing of 80 and 90 year old women by the police by an illegal order from the Governor and the "Chocolate City" (his words) Mayor.  And, as the citizens were defensless from the crime wave they had no firearms to protect themselves.  Democrat Governor, Democrat Mayor.  So, what if the Democrat President disarms me or my grandmother?  Out of my cold, dead fingers.  I did notice that you did fail to even comment on the assault of the 2nd and 10th amendment.  Do you just not like those, or are only aware of the 4th amendment of the constitution because of the lies of CNN and MSNBC?  And, you also proved that being a "racist" is defeating (in your case horribly) a liberal in an argument.  I did succesfully however point out that preventing minorities in Chicago and Southern California from owning guns, but allowing white people in Montana and Wyoming from owning guns IS racist.  Apparently thinking people from every state and every race deserve the constitution is racist.  Well, next in your book being racist is wanting minorities to vote too.  Do you want only people in Montana and Wyoming to have the rest of the bill of rights amendments?  Chicago doesn't need that Constitution, why would would they right?

[ Parent ]
You're deluded (0.00 / 0)
"The largest travesty of New Orleans was the illegal conviscation of firearms."

So you place hypothetical confiscation of firearms as a greater harm than loss of life? How unchristian of you.

you did fail to even comment on the assault of the 2nd and 10th amendment.

What assault? Obama ain't even president yet. Bush's assault's are well documented. Well enough, probably to keep a war crimes tribunal busy for many years.

preventing minorities in Chicago and Southern California from owning guns... IS racist.

Why don't you go to work on the south side of Chicago as a community organizer to get the citizens there to rise up in support of their constitutional rights? Oh, yeah, right... that would be like following in Obama's footsteps.

As to the rest of your drivel, you should feed the hamsters in your head some downers once in a while. It'll slow them down on the exercise wheel. And maybe keep them from watching FixNews so much.


[ Parent ]
JC...you do know which one is your elbow right? (0.00 / 0)
"So you place hypothetical confiscation of firearms"

Fact: Mayor Ray Nagin, and Police Chief Warren Riley admitted, just two months ago, to the mass confiscation of legally possessed firearms and that it was illegal and unconstitutional.  And the answer to which one is your elbow; its the one you don't speak out of.

Link http://www.nraila.org/Legislat...

"How unchristian of you."  If I even thought for one second you understood, believed, or even acknowledged Jesus Christ I would take this comment seriously.  But, I believe I've shown too much of your ignorance of gun rights that your precious ego might not be ready for me to poke giant holes in your theological deficiencies.


[ Parent ]
Tsk, Tsk (0.00 / 0)
Widowmaker, I defy you to claim that I don't know the teachings of Jesus.  JC was right on the money, if rather harsh ... and probably rightly so. I doubt Jesus would have favored the nonexistent right to defend with violence as more abhorrent then the illegal confiscation of firearms.  Jesus wasn't about "rights" half as much as he was about what is right.  Do we need to discuss private property and the temple money lenders?

If you wish to discuss theology, then do so.  If you wish to transact about the Constitution, then do so.  JC never pretended that they would be the same.  Why do you?  


[ Parent ]
Confused (0.00 / 0)
I have an honest question Wulfgar.  You said "If you wish to discuss theology, then do so.  If you wish to transact about the Constitution, then do so.  JC never pretended that they would be the same.  Why do you?"  This question should be directed to JC, who was the one that implied they were the same.  I only replied that if it wasn't a sarcastic statement, I would have replied.

However, if you are serious, in another setting outside of comments, I would actually enjoy talking theology with you.  Because I greatly disagree with you that we don't have a God-given right to protect ourselves and our family.  And, I believe this right is biblically supported.


[ Parent ]
Make a bet (0.00 / 0)
Gun control is so very far hidden on Obama's priority plate that he doesn't even mention it for the first 2 years of his Presidency.

Furthermore, he has a sharp legal mind and clear understanding of politics.  The Heller ruling left a huge question mark, which for an elected politician is a steel leg trap ... with cutting teeth. He will do nothing save let the SCOTUS flesh out their earlier ruling (or non-ruling depending on your view.)  Republicants would be rather uncharacteristically wise in NOT painting the unelected SCOTUS into a corner on this issue, by going after Obama.  


After the first 2 years... (0.00 / 0)
all bets are off, right? ;)

[ Parent ]
Yap.... (0.00 / 0)
That's what I thought.

[ Parent ]
Are you layin' money? (0.00 / 0)
You got nothin', shortcake.

[ Parent ]
And you got less than nothin'. (0.00 / 0)
"Obama won't be a HUGE Socialist until half-way through his first term!!!11!" -- Wulfgar

Your ability to rationalize away ANY situation continues to boggle my mind.  Keep up the good work...or whatever you want to call it.


[ Parent ]
Words have meaning (0.00 / 0)
Rusty, not one person, even that idiot Hammond, currently posting or commenting on the Montana blogs is as clueless about the meanings of the words they use as you are.  Do yourself a favor.  Go to a library and grab a dictionary.  Look up the word "rationalize".  You will see that it's meaning is in no way fitting to the purpose you use it for here.  You'll find the same when you look up "socialist" or "socialism".

Then you're going to want to look up the word "assumption". I further suggest that you find a book on critical thinking, and look up the phrase "circular reasoning". Don't get too shook when you see a picture of yourself in the examples.

Now, I repeat, are you taking my bet?  Or are you going to continue flopping around on the floor wailing and worrying about what that bad ole commie Muslim Obama will do in 2011?

(Here's a hint, Rusty.  You won't end up looking like a such a douchbag if you actually deal with facts for once.  The Heller ruling, which still isn't final?  Laws are made by Congress not the President?  Gun control has nothing to do with socialism?  Are any of these making a dent in your childish and paranoid delusions?)


[ Parent ]
Wow. Just wow. (0.00 / 0)
Main Entry:  ra·tio·nal·ize:  
to create an excuse or more attractive explanation for (rationalize the problem)

Either you believe Obama's bullshit about not being anti-gun OR you're covering for him being anti-gun to make sure that all the MT voters who were duped into supporting him don't catch wind of it.  Spin...ya gotta love it.

Laws are made by Congress not the President?  Gun control has nothing to do with socialism?

I well aware of the legislative process =)

When did I make any mention of Socialism relative to gun control?  OH!  I get it!! You admit that Obama's a Socialist?  Sweet!


[ Parent ]
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