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Barack Obama
"Lincoln Sells Out Slaves"
by: Rob Kailey - Sep 13
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If You Haven't Seen This
by: Rob Kailey - Apr 28
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It's the system, stupid!
by: Jay Stevens - Oct 25
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Rob Kailey is a working schmuck with no ties or affiliations to any governmental or political organizations, save those of sympathy.

Education: Creating Markets and Distorting Labor Markets

by: Matt Singer

Mon Jan 19, 2009 at 09:26:22 AM MST


David Crisp wonders why the libertarian conservative Rob Natelson wants taxpayers on the hook for the cost of an education at Sidwell for every American student. Price tag: $29k a piece.

It's a good question. One of the things I've often wondered about is why education is one of the areas where libertarians basically give up the ghost on the rest of their theories. They don't rail against government intervention or say that the real driver in cost is government subsidies, they basically just demand that we build an education system that looks a lot like the French health care system -- privately controlled, largely non-profit health care delivery system financed primarily through public insurance (aka vouchers).

Alternately, they even like something closer to Britain's health care system, but with competing networks of hospitals (charter schools).

Anyways, it is all a bit funny.

The strange thing about education, though, is that it is a realm where the fundamental conservative critique is that we pay too much to the workers and we get poor results and the solution is to pay people less. Now, I'm not really sure that either part of this critique is correct, but it is completely baffling. Show me a single corporation on the planet that would conclude that its talent pool for hiring was insufficient and that their proper response is to slash the wages being offered and tell the applicants that they are stupid and I'll show you a firm about to hit really hard times.

Now, it is true that education costs more than it did 50 years ago. But K-12 education is extremely labor intensive. We have teacher to student ratios of probably 25:1 or 30:1. Include other staff -- executive, administrative, athletic, artistic, and support -- and you've got a lot of people working hard for each student. Throw in some particularly high-cost operations like special education (conservatives are pretty good at glossing over this issue) and you need to figure out how to pay for it.

The next piece of this is that people who enter teaching as a profession are not without other options. They come out of school with a B.S. or a B.A. and many public school teachers have advanced degrees, either in education or in a specific field of study.

Although teacher pay may have increased in the last several decades (I honestly don't have inflation-adjusted numbers handy), so has pay in sectors that compete with education, by a lot. If you're a starting college student with some solid math skills and you start evaluating options, which looks more rewarding? Teaching 8th grade math or writing algorithms for Google?

Frankly, given the way that many of our nation's loudest voices (largely from the right) have crapped all over teaching as a profession -- financially and rhetorically -- I'm amazed at the large number of extremely capable people entering the profession (folks like the writers of Intelligent Discontent are the kind of people I'm thinking of).

People choose their jobs for a number of reasons and many of us choose to do work that pays less than what we could earn in other fields because we find the non-monetary rewards to be significant. But teaching and much of other public service hasn't just been degraded financially. Meanwhile, the private sector has been held up as a bizarre pinnacle of brilliance and efficiency (a claim belied by any trip to a Carmike movie theater).

I'm actually pretty supportive of some big think on education policy. Our schools right now work pretty well for kids like me who grow up middle class in a large city in Montana. They don't work so well in other places. But beating up on teachers and their unions is only likely to make the problem worse. Lower pay, less job security, and insults don't improve productivity. They make it worse.

Matt Singer :: Education: Creating Markets and Distorting Labor Markets
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I'm pretty much in agreement Matt - (0.00 / 0)
I really have no complaints about the education being delivered here in Billings - The kids over at Senior High who actually want an education score in the top 10% of all kids in the USA on SAT's -

What I get out of Natelsons column is that public schools are not good enough for the children of the Messiah, the Great One, his Holiness, the Protector of the Poor, Barack Obama, and that all children should be so fortunate.


Heh (0.00 / 0)
Agreeing that Billings public schools are pretty good, your last sentence proves you didn't attend one, Eric.

"(T)hat all children should be so fortunate" as to what Eric?  What you wrote implies that they should be so fortunate as to be Obama's children.  If one is at all generous in offering understanding to your drivel, it appears that you think, as does Professor Bob, that it would be only fair for all children to be able to benefit from a $29,000 education.  No shit, Sherlock.

As an aside, how many mill levies have you voted against, Eric?

(It is really annoying to the thinking person when you persist in blanket agreement with posts and comments you clearly don't even understand.)


[ Parent ]
actually - (0.00 / 0)
I vote against most of the school levies here lately -

but it has nothing to do with the teachers, it's against the school board and their adgenda -

like building a high-shool in a cornfield - to help the realtors develop the area, and acknowledging that they wouldn't have enough money to operate it without closing Senior High for example -

If they want me to vote for levies - the BEA needs to put up better candidates than Mary Jo Fox -

And Rob - you must be either in denial about the elitism of Barack Obama, or you don't understand how the rich Democrats think -

Public Schools are not good enough for the anointed-ones children, but they are good enough for the 'other' children of the country -  


[ Parent ]
A few things (0.00 / 0)
  • As I think Mark T pointed out, Presidential kids in a public school is actually a massive distraction for the school.
  • DC schools ain't Billings schools. I've read a bit about the new school chancellor out there and some things sound promising about the direction, but D.C.'s public education system is a bit of a mess.
  • The point at the beginning of this post is that I don't actually think that Natelson believes "that all children should be so fortunate" as to get a Sidwell education. Hell, that's too lefty of a notion for me to believe. Sidwell costs nearly $30,000 a year. Anyone who wants to pay that and whose children can get accepted are allowed to (it's called a market), but the idea that we should offer $30k vouchers for education strikes me as a bit insane.


[ Parent ]
One thing that wasn't pointed out in comments (0.00 / 0)
The Treasury department petitioned President Carter not to have Amy attend public school because of the security nightmares that it entailed, including the overwhelming expense.  It simply saves taxpayers money having high risk targets attend a private facility.

(Yes, I have read the wingnuts and their stupid misapplication of equality arguments:  'why can't all our kids have the same security, wahhhh?'  Limbaugh had a fit over this as regards Chelsea Clinton.  The fact that not all of our kids can be held to ransom the US Treasury or our nuclear arsenal might have a wee bit to do with that, but don't expect the nutters to see the point.  What they are seeking isn't an argument for vouchers or better schools.  What they are seeking is another way to call liberals 'hypocrites', and pat themselves on the back for another point scored.)


[ Parent ]
Voucher Agenda (0.00 / 0)
It's pretty clear what the  voucher agenda is all about. It's not to get inner city kids into better schools, but to provide a $10,000 tax break for the kind of people who can afford $30,000/yr schools.

At the same time, conservatives hope to further break the public education system by denying it funding.

To me, it's very interesting. Conservatives actually seem to ask a lot of great questions about the education system. It's just that their answers are so terrible.

On a side note, did the wingnuts have a meeting last week to cry about how popular Obama is? It's sad that that's all they've got, really. It could be that he is popular because he is following the least competent President in the history of the United States.  Hell, George Bush I might be this popular now.


I think that depends (0.00 / 0)
A lot of voucher advocates really are drawn to the idea of competition improving performance. It's just that the actual architects of this seem to have, well, shaky motivations as you say.

Agreed on the questions front. Questioning the education system as currently built is great. It's chock full of inequities and inefficiencies. But answers that rely on denigrating school teachers or on trying to create a Sidwell-price education for every American student are bound to fail.


[ Parent ]
South Carolina (0.00 / 0)
I was in the South Carolina school system as a student many years ago.  I remember waiting in the gym once a year as my mother and I hoped I would win a spot at the charter school in the lottery system.  South Carolina per student pays more than Montana yet ranks near the lowest in the nation.  Schools competing, like the charters, were extremely successful.  Every single family in my neighborhood hoped for a slot.  This wasn't theory, this wasn't arguing what worked better.  It was solid proof.  Charter schools were extremely effective and spent the same amount of money per student as the normal public school.  So, why would you be against a charter system?  I only hope the people running the system when I have kids old enough are smart enough to create charter schools.

Southern states also have weak teachers' unions (0.00 / 0)
The question with charter schools is whether or not they actually drive the success or whether the mere act of self-selection by demonstrating choice is the driving issue behind the success of charters. Research is mixed as I understand it.

[ Parent ]
Definitely (0.00 / 0)
As a concept, I think competition for schools would be great. The issue is what motivates the agenda. I am deeply skeptical about the claims made by charter schools, who often have the power to self-select students, skewing the results.

Competition is great. It just seems like its advocates in education want their preferred solutions to get an unfair head start.


[ Parent ]
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