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Barack Obama
"Lincoln Sells Out Slaves"
by: Rob Kailey - Sep 13
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It's the system, stupid!
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Rob Kailey is a working schmuck with no ties or affiliations to any governmental or political organizations, save those of sympathy.

Is the F-22 really dead?

by: Jay Stevens

Tue Apr 07, 2009 at 07:11:53 AM MST


Excuse me for not jumping into the love-fest for the new Pentagon budget.

Here's the deal. Yesterday, Secretary Gates announced "cuts" made to the US military budget, which put a few weapons programs onto the cutting-room floor:

Defense Secretary Robert Gates' proposed budget would cut back some of the industry's largest deals, from a big upgrade of Army fighting units to contracts for new cargo planes and stealth destroyers.

Gates said Monday the Pentagon's weapons strategy will focus on equipment that can be used against the insurgencies and irregular threats faced in places like Afghanistan, rather than older programs designed for conventional wars. He also expressed skepticism over some programs with newer, yet unproven technology, like elements of the plan to build a shield from missile attacks.

The big news is that the budget includes a phase-out for the F-22, the world's most technologically advanced -- and, at just over $361 million per -- the most expensive fighter jet ever.

The LA Times calls the budget "just about right." Matt Duss says "Gates' recommendations are an important...move towards a responsible re-balancing of America's defense spending priorities." Noah Shachtman calls Gates' proposals, "the most sweeping overhaul of America's arsenal -- and of the Pentagon's budget -- in decades," lauding the Pentagon's moves towards programs that "concentrate on the dirty, irregular wars America is actually in" and touts the Secretary for "trying to shake the defense establishment free of the Cold War."

Well...for starters, the Pentagon's budget isn't being "cut." It's being increased by about forty billion. The "cuts" bandied about by the press and the administration are really cuts to the proposed increases. So, by "cutting," they mean "increasing less."

And don't get me started on the F-22. Yes, I think it's a good idea to phase out the plane. While Black Hawk Down author Michal Bowden's paen to the fighter jet makes it sound as if the existence of the American Empire hinges on the 60 planes Gates yesterday announced we won't be building, it's likely the nation's security would be better served by cheaper, "more austere" planes "tailored to the missions that actually win wars." Not to mention that the F-22 has yet to fly a combat mission, currently useless in any combat zone where there's an overabundance of radio signals. You know, like...well...everywhere.

And while Montana "boosters" are ruing Gates' decision to scrap the 60 F-22s, warning whoever they can pigeonhole that jobs! will! be! lost! at places like Summit Aeronautics in Helena, it turns out those claims are...er...not exactly true. It was only a year ago that the industry was crying over a labor shortage...and it's not as if the Pentagon has suddenly halted production of all its planes. Quite the reverse: Gates announced that we're doubling down on the F-35, the bomber/strike version of the F-22, and built by the same manufacturer, Lockheed Martin. Likely the jobs lost to the F-22 will be picked up by the near endless orders for the Pentagon's other planes.

(Incidentally, Lockheed Martin's stock rose by about nine percent immediately following Gates' comments yesterday on the Pentagon's new priorities.)

And...the F-22 isn't really dead! HuffPo blogger Chris Kelly points out that the 2009 budget still contains money to build the last four F-22s we've contracted...but leaves the door open for the budget presented in 2010 to buy more of the advanced fighter jets! Or, as aerospace analyst Richard Aboulafia commented, it was "just enough of a tactical victory to keep the F-22 going and allow political pressure to be brought to bear." That is, Lockheed Martin's lobbying corps will have a year to focus on Congress to get those 60 planes built.

So, yeah. I'm not sure I'd call this a "victory" of any sorts, especially of government over wasteful spending and big, corporate boondoggles.

Jay Stevens :: Is the F-22 really dead?
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So when news organizations (2.00 / 2)
cry about "cutting" social programs, are you going to clarify that they too aren't actually being cut, but instead just increasing less?  Or will you just repeat that lie over and over?

Government budgets don't actually decrease... But the military budget is one of the few supported constitutionally.  

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


dude... (0.00 / 0)
...you should read the Constitution. It's a really interesting document!

[ Parent ]
No worries... (0.00 / 0)
I have.

I understand you read into it what you want.

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


[ Parent ]
er... (0.00 / 0)
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States..."

And I have to say that the body of the law and tradition is wholly on my side. But go ahead and interpret the document any way you want; just don't go pretending you enjoy anything but a fringe position.


[ Parent ]
You interpret (4.00 / 1)
General welfare differently than I do, Jay.

The above to me means: Roads, taxing, international trade, military, borders, even currency.  That's it.

It's not fringe, but go ahead and tell yourself that.

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


[ Parent ]
You beat me by a couple of minutes (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
what's "fringe"... (0.00 / 0)
...is the opinion that only military funding is constitutional. Didn't know you agreed about roads, et al. BTW, can you think of a better fit for "general welfare" than universal health care?

[ Parent ]
A good fit? (0.00 / 0)
You mean "Universal Health Insurance Coverage" because that's what you are talking about, but that's off topic.  (No, it's not something that is "fitting" in the Fed powers at all- if anything, it should be a state issue)

Military is part of defending the country, so yes, it's basic to what is listed in the Constitutional powers.

Would you have us lie defenseless?

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


[ Parent ]
"Would you have us lie defenseless?" (0.00 / 0)
Like those who have no "Universal Health Insurance Coverage"?

[ Parent ]
They are not defenseless... (0.00 / 0)
And answer the question at hand.

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001

[ Parent ]
"They are not defenseless..." (0.00 / 0)
Tell that to the homeless guy who froze to death in a Missoula alley a few days ago. Oh, right, you can't...

[ Parent ]
That damn "frozen death disease"... (0.00 / 1)
it'll get ya every time!

Seriously though, WTF are you talking about?


[ Parent ]
And how would Universal Coverage (0.00 / 0)
Solved his problem?  Does it mandate central heating in Missoula alleys?  

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001

[ Parent ]
Universal health care (0.00 / 0)
doesn't solve health care problems. It solves the access to health care problem. The guy was sick. He had no health coverage. If he would have, he could have been treated and maybe lived to become a productive member of society.

And save your moralistic, pick-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps argument about responsibility. If people like you are fine with the idea of mentally ill people not getting treatment, and dying in alleys--out of sight, out of mind--then I want nothing to do with you. If you don't have the human decency to see the problem for what it is, then I pray that someday you or someone you love doesn't succumb to the same social and medical ills that "Varmint" did. Because you or they'd just rot and die in an alley too, given the attitude you display, and most likely have taught to your children.


[ Parent ]
You do realize (0.00 / 0)
that there's a difference between "health care" and "health insurance", right?


[ Parent ]
He already wrote that, Rusted (0.00 / 0)
That word "access" might be something you want to look up sometime.  Insurance does not provide are, it provides access to care.  No pay, no care ... unless you like footing the bill for ambulances, emergency room visits and state funded funerals.  Do you, Rusted?  You like those things?

[ Parent ]
If it means the difference (4.00 / 1)
between me living and dying, then yes, I do "like those things".  Go into debt or die...to quote the old IBM NFL commericials of old, "YOU make the call!"

[ Parent ]
He had access (0.00 / 0)
He didn't have a desire.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE INSURANCE TO GET COVERAGE.

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


[ Parent ]
Yes, idiot (0.00 / 0)
By very definition you do have to have insurance to get "COVERAGE".  Look at it this way, twit.  The man in question chose to die rather than burden poor sydney at twit with the bill.  You should be hailing him as your hero.

[ Parent ]
No. (0.00 / 0)
You don't.

If you don't have INSURANCE, you can still go to the doctor, or a clinic or the er.  

In my own experience, this is true.  

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


[ Parent ]
You're full of it, as usual, Syd (0.00 / 0)
And Rusty, this is for you, too...

Human services cuts are for real - Tuesday, April 7, 2009, Missoulian

Sometimes when politicians refer to making budget "cuts," what they really mean is a cut to a planned increase in funding. So, for instance, if the Montana Legislature approved a 10 percent increase in funding for K-12 education for the next 10 years, and then reduced that to a 5 percent increase two years later, some might refer to that as a 5 percent cut in funding - even though schools would still get more money.

Legislators' recent proposal to cut $115 million from Montana's human services in 2011 is not that kind of cut. Rather, it would demand a real reduction in real money - and it would result in real hardship for real Montanans.

You guys can just shut up and quit pretending that you know what's going on in the real world.


[ Parent ]
Neither of us were addressing (0.00 / 0)
Specifics, rather a general attitude of the left... Telling the truth when it benefits, otherwise using propaganda and words to deceive.

The Missoulian prints that, but watch the next time they cry "Budget Cuts!!!" and it'll be the same ol' same ol' deception.  

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


[ Parent ]
How convenient, (2.00 / 2)
when the specifics contradict your general and incorrect opinions on the real world.

Nothing more, to paraphrase a right-wing loon, than:

"Telling the truth when it benefits, otherwise using propaganda and words to deceive... the same ol' same ol' deception."


[ Parent ]
Nothing is contradictory, (0.00 / 0)
It's just almost unheard of for media to acknowledge the difference between an actual budget decrease versus a reduction in increase...  And it's rare for government to shrink- and I mean really shrink, not just decrease the growth.

I'm not sure what you're arguing about... you seem to be upset about nothing.  Nothing I've said is wrong, and you know it.

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


[ Parent ]
You said: (0.00 / 0)
"Government budgets don't actually decrease."

I showed you a case where they did. Minimize it all you want. You speak in untrue generalizations. The case I showed you will result in much harm to Montanans--both in need of services, and those who will pay the tax bill:

"The state Department of Health and Human Services provides preventative treatment in the fundamental sense, because many people who do not get the health care or mental health treatment they need before their conditions reach the point of crisis eventually wind up being treated in our emergency rooms or correctional facilities."

Once again it is a case of penny wise and dollar foolish. Like most of the conservative drivel I hear these days. And you and Rusty are just along for the ride, parroting talking points.


[ Parent ]
LOLOLOLOL (2.00 / 2)
You took my generalization, showed me an exception, and expected me to take that as refutation??  LOL

You're funny, JC.

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


[ Parent ]
I just showed you (0.00 / 0)
that your generalizations are built on strawmen and lies, Sid. Renders your arguments useless. Laugh all you want, but no one's laughing with you. They're all laughing at you.

[ Parent ]
Seriously... (2.00 / 2)
...that's the first time I've ever seen a news article state the actual definition of a "budget cut", even more surprising to see it show up on a Lefty blog...even though the "article" you linked to was actually an opinion piece.

 


[ Parent ]
Ahhh... (0.00 / 1)
So so much for JC crowing about Strawmen (He's projecting- lol) ... It wasn't actually the Missoulian defining it, and actual budget decreases are so rare as to merit an editorial.

He's just proving what I said earlier.

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


[ Parent ]
"that's the first time I've ever seen a news article..." (0.00 / 1)
You should get out and read more. It's good for the brain. Lots of stuff like that out and about.

[ Parent ]
Reading comprehension... (2.00 / 2)
Look into it.

[ Parent ]
Definition of Strawman: (0.00 / 0)
http://www.nizkor.org/features...

In case you don't read it, it proves that it is you who was using a fallacious argument.  

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001


[ Parent ]
I can't believe what I just read... (0.00 / 0)
Well...for starters, the Pentagon's budget isn't being "cut." It's being increased by about forty billion. The "cuts" bandied about by the press and the administration are really cuts to the proposed increases. So, by "cutting," they mean "increasing less."

Thanks for finally educating all your readers as to the actual meaning of a budget cut.

Exit question:  Will you treat other proposed budget "cuts" with the honesty?


sure... (0.00 / 0)
...but of course I'm not exactly against spending, per se, just wasteful, useless spending, like the F-22 and huge highway projects, etc & co.

[ Parent ]
actually... (0.00 / 0)
...I feel I'm entirely consistent. Just because I'm not subservient to a rigid and simplistic doctrine doesn't mean I'm dishonest or unprincipled. I like government programs that work and help people. I dislike other programs that are useless, wasteful, and harmful. I mean, it's not that difficult to understand, is it?

[ Parent ]
Nice to see you "feel" that way (2.00 / 2)
Now we're into ideology...some programs that you feeeel are useless I think are vital...some programs that I think are vital, you feeeel are useless.

"...and general welfare of the United States..."

I'm sure you read that phrase as quite literal..."See!!  Welfare's backed by the Constitution!!!"


[ Parent ]
Gosh (0.00 / 0)
I wonder why ...

the GOP shills around here ...

keep breaking ...

the comment threads.

Wait, no ...

I don't.


Shill? (0.00 / 0)
Like you have room to talk

[ Parent ]
Have I broken the threads, Rusted? (0.00 / 0)
Why no, I haven't.

You're real tough on the ...
misdirection, asswipe.

The point of my comment ...
wasn't whether you're a shill, but ...
whether you keep breaking and trolling ...
the website.

That would be a huge YES.


[ Parent ]
What are you talking about? (0.00 / 0)
And I'm really going out on a limb talking to you... So don't disappoint me.

- Keeping the Left honest since 2001

[ Parent ]
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