If this doesn't make your blood boil...

Turner (0.00 / 0)

The Levin report, and other sources, seem to show that Bush et al have done some very, very bad things.  What I'd like to know is what actual crimes they can be charged with.  Murder? Fraud?

"War crimes," if I'm not mistaken, are prosecuted under international tribunals.  Would Americans, because our country is so powerful, be in effect immune to such prosecution?

   

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by: Turner @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 17:03:50 PM UTC

Actually Jay, (0.00 / 0)

we didn't go to war because of information we gained, we went to war despite having gained evidence of a link between Sadam and al-Qaida through interrogations. The torture was just another attempt to justify a preordained decision by the Bush admin to go to war.

What we can do is give the Bush administration a huge shout out for not completely following in the Chinese and N. Koreans footsteps by using torture to elicit false statements from prisoners in order to run a propaganda machine.

How about that--a shred of integrity remained in the face of using the same tactics that we successfully prosecuted other nations and individuals for. I'd be pretty proud if I was a mucky-muck in the previous admin. And I'd have the privilege to have the likes of Cheney, Limbaugh, Hannity and Gingrich to stand up for me! And I'd love to have the opportunity to sit in the witness stand parsing out the differences between my actions and those of convicted N. Korean and Chinese war criminals.

It's showtime!

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by: JC @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 17:21:54 PM UTC

war lies (0.00 / 0)

Your post baffles me, can't decide if it is part ignorance and part sarcasim, or just all snark. The connection between Saddum and al-quada lie was the most important piece of the engineered tapastry of lies used to convince a large portion of the population to support the illegal invasion of Iraq. So yes the false statements gained by torture WERE used (exclusively?) for propaganda. And the "supreme war crime" of agressive war (unprovoked use of force) is a capital offence. The only thing working against justice for the perps that caused so much loss of life and treasure is the age old premise that might makes right. Kind of like the big finantial institutions that caused the rape-public-can recession...... too big to take down.

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by: reggiewhitefish @ Fri Apr 24, 2009 at 14:23:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

sarcasm... (0.00 / 0)

But I have yet to see where any of the lies about WMD or links between Saddam and al-Qaida were attributed to statements obtained by torture. Not saying it doesn't exist--many more memos and reports yet to come--but the words coming from those who were in the know have paint a pretty ugly picture for the past administration.

There are some people, and media commentators even on the left, who are holding (possibly to an illusion) that our country was using torture to get to "the truth" while the Chinese and N. Koreans were looking to invoke lies for propaganda.

My main point is that through other avenues we have concluded that there was no link between Saddam and al-Qaida, and that if torture were to have revealed (falsely) that there was, and that if that information was leaked to the public, then we would have been absolutely no better than the communist Chinese and N. Koreans.

I find the splitting of the hairs in this particular instance to be particularly revealing as to whom is the dictator and communist leader, and whom is (was)  the leader of the free world. When it comes to torture, it seems they are flip sides of the same coin. One leader's war crime is another leader's badge of honor.

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by: JC @ Fri Apr 24, 2009 at 17:50:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Blood boil? (0.00 / 0)

FYI Jay - what the intelligence community did to enemy combatants doesn't make my blood boil. They deserved what they got and more I'm certain.

Just a reminder Jay, there where were 2,974 Americans, mostly cililians, killed on 9/11.

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by: Eric Coobs @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 17:22:00 PM UTC

Did the over 4,000 (0.00 / 0)

American serviceman who have lost their lives in Iraq deserve to die because the Bush admin's decision to resort to torture solidified our enemy and gave them fodder to recruit, and a battleground to rally around?

No, the drawn out war in Iraq was of our own making, a direct result of Bush's bungling--including the decision to use torture.

Those 4,000+ serviceman and women we lost were in no small part payback for having illegally tortured detainees.

Coobs, it is exactly the sentiment of "they deserved what they got and more" that is responsible for our American deaths and injuries. I hang the responsibility for those deaths and 10's of thousands of injuries, and trillions of dollars of war cost and debt on you, and everybody else that gets a hard on supporting and cheering on punishment and revenge via torture for prisoners of war.

You are no better than they.

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by: JC @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 17:38:47 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

that's the lamest... (0.00 / 0)

...defense of torture I've ever heard.

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by: Jay Stevens @ Thu Apr 23, 2009 at 19:26:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Weak Logic or Just Racism? (0.00 / 0)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/w...

This guy was doing KP in some forgotten war while 9/11 was being planned and executed.  There's no evidence of any kind that he had any involvement or knowledge in 9/11.  The only way to justify conduct towards him based on 9/11 is to say 'he's one of them.'


Confirm thy soul in self control, thy liberty in law.

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by: CharleyCarp @ Sat Apr 25, 2009 at 12:21:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yesterday's release of the congressional report on torture (0.00 / 0)

was significant in many ways.  It was a necessary link in establishing the connection between CIA and military (GTMO, Abu Ghraib, Bagram afb) interrogation techniques that goes to the very top.  The pile of information coming out about torture is assuming, through the not insubstantial assistance of this new free-speech media (web), the shape of a complete story that constitutes EVIDENCE.  ADMISSIBLE EVIDENCE IN COURT to prove that the US, under the last eight years of the Bush administration, for political purposes (of justifying the non-existent al-Qaeda/Sadaam link for invading Iraq) has assumed place in history, alongside the Spanish Inquisition, within the halls of historical infamy.  This time will be recorded by future historians as a dark age in human history.

We contributors to this site (including the notable exceptions who approved, and continue to approve of this type of societal sociopathy) knew to different degrees that this was happening, and believe it or not, even you supporters are not responsible for it.  Nobody's going to prosecute Left in the West supporters of torture.  My hope, though, is that nobody is going to elect you, or give you the responsibility of ever, ever, representing my views.  I do not subscribe to your views as expressed in your comment to this post, Eric Coombs.

But we were, in fact, responsible, and are responsible now, to put an end to this dark age, this macabre tour of the halls of historical infamy.  I intend to write an essay soon summarizing this tidal wave of evidence that is coming out.  And this forum, Left in the West, has been and continues to be public record, recorded in history, of where you come down on this issue.  Consider that in your comments to this site.  At some point, you must begin to realize that it is not just sterile differences in politics that are discussed here.

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by: Bob Gentry @ Fri Apr 24, 2009 at 05:16:00 AM UTC