Contribute
Support Left in the West to continue our work:
Blog Ads

Syndication

RSS

Email Updates

Enter your email address:

Delivered by FeedBurner


Event Calendar
March 2010
(view month)
S M T W R F S
* 01 02 03 04 05 06
07 08 09 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31 * * *
<< (add event) >>

Full Disclosure
Matt Singer works for Forward Montana. He also is a partner in DP Productions, a small, Montana-based T-Shirt company.


Search




Advanced Search


Things that make you go, "hmm..."

by: Jay Stevens

Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 09:14:31 AM MDT


So the democratically elected leader of Hondouras is ousted by a military coup...and the Wall Street Journal's editorial on the event begins with this title:

"Honduras Defends Its Democracy."

Of course, the situation isn't as simple as "democracy vs. authoritarianism," the way the WSJ would frame it. Nor is it simply "the people vs. power," as others would frame it. IMHO, MyDD's [Charles Lemos] explains it best:

President Manuel Zelaya's promotion of a referendum on constitutional changes plunged the small, poor Central American country into crisis by setting the president at odds with the military, the courts and the legislature who had branded the vote illegal. In his attempt to hold this non-binding referendum, President Zelaya deposed his Military Chief of Staff, which in Honduras remains a powerful post, ignored Congress, his own party and the country's Attorney General. The President refused to obey the Supreme Court's orders to reinstate General Romeo Vázquez, who had refuse to comply with an order to conduct the referendum. In Honduras, the military plays a role in conducting elections. President Zelaya undercut his own legal standing with his extra-constitutional attempts to amend the Constitution.

While President Zelaya paid the price for his strong arm tactics, his ouster hardly seems Constitutionally prescribed either. President Zelaya was dispatched into his exile in his pajamas. Troops surrounded the Presidential Palace at dawn. They took his cell phone, shoved him into a van and took him to an air force base, where he was put on a plane to San José, Costa Rica. I haven't read the Honduran Constitution but I doubt this is the procedure for impeachment.

It's not exactly a situation with clear-cut acts of injustice, is it? A bad event to hang your ideological hat on.

Still, with universal condemnation of the coup from American governments splayed out across the entire political spectrum, there's one thing that's clear: the Hondouran military overstepped its boundaries.

Which makes you wonder all the more why a group of US conservatives like the one who penned this editorial are so enthusiastic about military power being used to topple an elected leader...

Jay Stevens :: Things that make you go, "hmm..."
Tags: , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
The sincerity of the "universal condmenation" will be clear ... (0.00 / 0)
If the new dictator is allowed to stay in power, then the U.S. is happy with the outcome. The U.S. could will him out with a mere brush of the hair from our forehead. After all, we have U.S. military aid, the IMF and World Bank at our disposal, along with the OAS.

If he stays, it's what we wanted, and was probably done with our help.


Woah (4.00 / 1)
Dude, my contact in the Illuminati just verified your claim, and he called ... from INSIDE YOUR HOUSE!  GET OUT!  Get out now, or you'll never live to see another sunrise!

[ Parent ]
Do a quick Wiki ... (0.00 / 0)
Look up "American Power", "Power" in general - who has it, who doesn't, how it is used, then do "U.S. History in Latin America," "coup d'état" ... report back.

Your are so darling! Now, back to the kitchen, fix my dinner honey bun.  


[ Parent ]
Don't give me orders, kitten. (4.00 / 1)
You ain't the boss a' me.  If you'd like to know why you are so laughable, then you might want to read this.

[ Parent ]
You're adoreable! (0.00 / 1)
Life is complicated and best viewed from a distance. People with power and common interests do not "conspire" in the Illuminati sense, but merely act in their own interest. But it is many people - millions perhaps, with tens of thousands holding positions of influence. They exert control over weaker countries, and our own institutions as well. Because human organizations like corporations have military-like authority structures, those at the top of the structure set goals and objectives and give orders, while those at the bottom on the chain carry out the will of those at the top without question. This leads to brutality and indifference to suffering as millions live in poverty so that countries like ours can prosper.

So for centuries now, Europe and the United States have exerted control over Latin American governments, mostly to export their resources and cheap labor, but also to outright own the land. We have kept them impoverished, and when they rise up, as they repeatedly have, we have a counterinsurgency on our hands. Usually we support this or that general, like Pinochet, many times we simply send in the marines and murder or exile the existing government officials, retire formal bodies like courts and legislatures, install torture regimes, and murder and disappear anyone remotely assoicated with the old government.

I am very surprised you don't know of this - Hugo Chavez gave Obama a book to read, well known everywhere but here, "Open Veins of Latin America". Appears you could stand to read it too. I am very surprised at your ... must use harsh word here ... ignorance.  


[ Parent ]
Have you thought even once? (4.00 / 1)
Have you considered, even for the briefest of moments, that you're preaching to the choir as only Fred Phelps would?  We're are not the sinners you seek, Mark.  If you were railing against Chiquita or Coca-Cola or any number of "American" clothing manufacturers and their role in the Honduran coup, no one here would bat an eye.  But instead, you assume ignorance and attack.  You claim that what America wants America will get, and the proof is the spin on whatever happens being good for the American sinners.  The defacto conspiracy is proven because we see it's effect.  Read your first comment again.  You said, quite boldly, that whatever the outcome in Honduras, it will be what America wanted, thus proving an American conspiracy.  That's silly.  I was right and justified to point it out as silly.

[ Parent ]
Even when the words are right in front of you ... (0.00 / 0)
You get it wrong. Here's what I said:
If he stays, it's what we wanted, and was probably done with our help.

Let me put it in simpler terms: The U.S. has almost complete power over a little country like Honduras, and can dictate outcomes. When there is a military coup, we can reverse it in a minute by merely threatening to embargo of food, medicine, as we do with Cuba, and military equipment, and by having IMF and World Bank withhold credit. A phone call would take care of it. The OAS can also apply pressure, as it is dominated by the U.S.

Therefore, if we do not exercise our almost absolute power, then it is strong evidence that we approve of the outcome. Since the U.S. has a long history of sponsoring coups in that part of the world, it would not be a stretch to speculate that the U.S. was behind the coup, as Zelaya is in league with Hugo Chavez, and therefore already in hot water.

You reply:

Dude, my contact in the Illuminati just verified your claim, and he called ... from INSIDE YOUR HOUSE!  GET OUT!  Get out now, or you'll never live to see another sunrise!

Dumb, dumb, dumb, and evidence of ignorance. It's not just a clothing company here and there, or  a banana plantation. It's our way of life. We depend on little countries like Honduras to provide us with cheap resources and labor. When they try to break the mold, we, in one form or another, attack.

Now, go play with your friends.  


[ Parent ]
Oh, (0.00 / 0)
One more thing.  Quit telling me what to do.  I know that's wingnut SOP, but from you, it's comic. As for playing with my friends, right now I prefer to point and laugh at you.  

[ Parent ]
Dumb, Dumb, Dumb (0.00 / 0)
Here's what you said, Mark:

If he stays, it's what we wanted

Here's what you said, Mark:

If the new dictator is allowed to stay in power, then the U.S. is happy with the outcome.

You're right Mark, at least as correct as your premature ejaculation can allow.  You posed an "IF" and then assumed the end.  You could be right, you could be wrong, but the only assumption of outcome ... came from you, and yet others are deemed ignorant for pointing out that you shot your wad way too early based on a conspiracy theory about the United States of America.  Getting facts about a specific situation is not ignorant.  Assuming facts about a situation is wingnut batshit crazy.  Face it, buddy, you're a wingnut.  There's no shame in that, it's just the way it is.  The shame is in your refusal to recognize that, Pal, you're a wingnut.


[ Parent ]
God what a dick ... (0.00 / 0)
And an ignorant one at that.

The U.S. was behind the 2002 coup d'état in Venezuela. The Supreme court was replaced in total, the legislature disbanded, Hugo Chavez arrested. SOP. But something odd happened - the people awakened, surrounded the palace, the police joined with the people, and the coup d'état was stopped, democracy restored. The U.S. is not as powerful down there as it once was, and does not always succeed. Just so you know.

That appears to be what is happening in Honduras - a popular uprising, the kind of thing we used to do in this country. As to whether or not they will succeed in restoring their government, time will tell. Was the U.S. involved? Hard to know at this point. All I can say is probably. It's too much to expect that an ally of Chavez is overthrown and the U.S. had nothing to do with it.

If he stays, it's what we wanted ... If the new dictator is allowed to stay in power, then the U.S. is happy with the outcome.

I feel like I'm dealing with a grade schooler. The two statements say the same thing, which I'll repeat for the last time: The U.S. has the power to reverse the coup with the wave of a hand. I explained how this would be done. I then explained that the U.S. not interfering with the coup would be strong evidence that the U.S. helped in the coup. You know, oh scholarly one, so aware of Latin American history - you can probably list the hundred or so interventions and coups the U.S. has sponsored or supported over the years. Do it now. Do it! I'm waiting.

Wait wait wait!!! I'm getting it now. I'm slow. You think that because Obama got elected, things changed.

I'm a wingnut, I guess. I describe reality, you don't like reality, call me names. I've got to study that some more.

Now, go play with your friends.  


[ Parent ]
Quit contradicting yourself (0.00 / 0)
Was the U.S. involved? Hard to know at this point.

...

If he (the new dictator) stays, it's what we wanted

QED.


[ Parent ]
If that is what your argument comes down to ... (0.00 / 0)
I accept your resignation. Lame as lame can be.

You didn't rise to the Obama bait. You really do think he changed things. Don't you! My god, you are adorable!

Brush your teeth. It's near bedtime now snookums. Obama will watch over you.  


[ Parent ]
You might learn a thing or two from this (0.00 / 0)
Interesting article, Chinese perspective. Mentions "School of the Americas", a terrorist training school at Ft Benning, Georgia, since renamed. Two of the generals that participated were graduates.

http://china.org.cn/internatio...

Obama has stopped short of seeking reinstatement of Zelaya. Hillary Clinton initially condemned the coup, but has backtracked. I think the article mentions that the U.S. could easily reverse the coup, but is apparently not interested in doing so. (60% of Honduras products go to U.S., probalby fruit.)

Zelaya led a movement that successfully allowed for reinstatement of Cuba in the OAS last May. That pissed off the U.S. delegation, and could have been the first domino that led to the coup.  


[ Parent ]
Oh, man! (0.00 / 0)
If every morning you get up and the sun rises in the east, and at the end of the day it sets in the west, do you doubt a pattern is involved? I'm not saying that's a conspiracy or that Mark T is right, but WTF: We are not talking about Dan Brown here! Check out Eduardo Galeano and other credible historical scribes. There is a long record of imperial behavior! The U.S. didn't start it! The British didn't start it! Alexander the Great didn't start it! The Persians didn't start it! I reserve judgment as to specifics in modern Iran, Honduras and wherever. Maybe Mark is a nutcase about this kind of stuff, but...

Oh, man! (0.00 / 0)
I was responding to Wulfgar re Mark T. (Is there a redirect button here somewhere? Call me "dumber than dog shit" when it comes to computer stuff!")

[ Parent ]
The sun also rises ... (0.00 / 0)
It's interesting that we can see imperialist behavior in others, but not ourselves. We can see that Iran has a shadowy power structure behind a mostly phony democracy, but cannot see the same thing here. It surprises no one that the Russians or Rwandans would invade a country and bomb innocent civilians, but we are sincerely blind to it when our own country does it.

Anyway, you are right - it is as old as human history, and goes by many names - imperialism, conquest, free trade, globalism, but it has only one bottom line: Domination. Rich countries like ours depend on cheap labor and resources from overseas. So did the Romans.  


[ Parent ]
It goes way, way back! (0.00 / 0)
It's in the blood, it seems. It makes me sad. I don't know why I'm here!

[ Parent ]
We are the lucky ones. (0.00 / 0)
Some of us are aware of it and want to change it. We are marginalized. It takes far more courage for a Honduran to stand up to power and possibly cease to exist than for you or I to comment on a blog. We are lucky cowards.  

[ Parent ]
Lucky cowards? (0.00 / 0)
I wish I could feel that way. Iranian friends in Bozeman wish that they had more power to act in their own country, but they don't. They are left with the hope that violence against a tyrannical regime will not destroy their families. Some things, otherwise international, are very personal. I tend towards concern for the very personal.

[ Parent ]
You can do somethign about our own government ... (0.00 / 0)
The similarities between us and Iran - the sham democracy, the influence of religious fundamentalists, the rule buy right wing authoritarians, are striking. Perhaps your Iranian friends have the same sympathies for you.  

[ Parent ]
Ol' jed feels less lonely than he did when he first found his way to this (0.00 / 0)
rather oddly entitled forum.
It was I recall, after being banned from  blackbirds for referring to its owner as a Reagan Democrat.
This forum is admirably less proprietary; but almost theologically political instead of activist.  
It is refreshing to read posts by people who--although as confused as ol' jed about how to do what needs be done--seem concerned that the way has become perhaps too indirect.
Perhaps it is a generational thing?

Wulfgar seems to expect to prove, by proclamation, (0.00 / 0)
what cannot be shown as factual--or logical.  I have run across many like that; but usually they have been RightWingCrazies...

Menu

Make a New Account

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?


Bookmark and Share

Poll
Would kind of likely reform would you support?
Baucus plan, with or without public option
Baucus plan, but only with public option
I don't support the Baucus plan, period

Results

Blog Roll
  • 4 & 20 Blackbirds
  • A Secular Franciscan Life
  • Big Sky Blog
  • Cece-in-MT
  • David Crisp's Billings Blog
  • David Sirota
  • Discovering Urbanism
  • Ecorover
  • Granny Insanity
  • Great Falls Firefly
  • Intelligent Discontent
  • Lamnidae
  • Lesley's Podcast
  • Livingston, I Presume
  • Great Falls Firefly
  • Montana Main St.
  • Montana Maven
  • Montana Netroots
  • Montana Politics
  • Montana With kids
  • Patia Stephens
  • Piece of Mind
  • Pragmatic Revolt
  • Prairie Mary
  • Rebels Are We
  • Speedkill
  • Sporky
  • The Alberton Papers
  • The Fighting Liberal
  • The Montana Capitol Blog
  • The Montana Misanthrope
  • Thoughts From the Middle of Nowhere
  • Treasure State Judaism
  • Writing and the West
  • Wrong Dog's Life Chest
  • Wulfgar!

  • Powered by: SoapBlox