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Barack Obama
"Lincoln Sells Out Slaves"
by: Rob Kailey - Sep 13
1 Comments
If You Haven't Seen This
by: Rob Kailey - Apr 28
5 Comments
Impeach the President?
by: Rob Kailey - Mar 16
15 Comments
It's the system, stupid!
by: Jay Stevens - Oct 25
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Rob Kailey is a working schmuck with no ties or affiliations to any governmental or political organizations, save those of sympathy.

Let it be their Waterloo

by: Jay Stevens

Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 08:11:00 AM MST


Over at ECC, I read Greg's soothing call for "objectivity" on the GOP-led efforts to thwart health-care reform:

You see, there really are two sides to every story. That doesn't mean that you can not 'pick' one of those sides, strongly believe you are right, and actually be right. It just means that every time you take a position on a matter, you had better understand that there is a different position somewhere that someone else thinks is right....

...We've never, ever seen anyone one with a leftist agenda disrupt any sort of a government meeting, have we? That's because they're nice, and people on the right are "violent" and "authoritarian." Remember a few years ago when there was a study or a few studies claiming that people leaning right are dumber than liberals? (By the way, Mark has pointed me to "studies" too...no doubt funded by tax dollars!) Who was the last Republican Presidential candidate who was not generally mocked as stupid? Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, these men are geniuses. Reagan, an amiable dunce. President Bush (W), a Yale graduate is an idiot.

Yes...how...how...reasonable! And it's...true...sort of...

But wait. What's the "other" side of the story? The outrage over the recent spate of Republican-led protests isn't about acknowledging conservative opposition to Democratic health care reform. It's about a concerted effort - by quasi-legal means - to kill reform. Not to alter it, not to influence it, not to offer compromise, or to put forth a conservative solution - or even a coherent worldview, competing ideas, an alluring image of what's right and proper. No, this is plain, politics, brutish and ugly, not meant to open the doors of democracy and debate, but to slam them closed.

And this isn't some kind of tit-for-tat: the disturbances of Baucus' committee hearings on health-care by single-payer advocates was in favor of widening debate in the hopes of forcing representatives to at least consider a powerful and beautiful idea. Those disturbances weren't thuggish or malicious or wrapped in lies and racist, nativist fury.

It's a prominent conservative repeating AM-radio canards to her gullible followers. It's Republican political operatives masquerading as "ordinary moms" at protests to foster the illusion of a seething mass. It's death threats made to union members. It's a anti-health-care-reform activist urging his followers to "carry" and "hurt badly" ACORN/SEIU members that oppose them at protests. It's a concerted effort by the Republican party to deliberately mislead Americans as to what the health care legislation actually contains.

What's it all about, anyway?

There are days when I look at the modesty of the plan -- which would cover 40 million people, impose some small taxes on the rich, curb the worst excesses of the insurance industry and not affect the overwhelming majority of people at all -- and the pitch of the rhetoric and really wish that the plan on the table was actually worth this much controversy and rage. It is evidence for the view that the difference between proposing something really ambitious and something pretty modest is that the modest plan gets you more industry support. The political mobilization and polarization will be the same either way.

Back to the Steven Pearlstein op-ed. "The recent attacks by Republican leaders and their ideological fellow-travelers, on the effort to reform the health-care system," writes Pearlstein, "have been so misleading, so disingenuous, that they could only spring from a cynical effort to gain partisan political advantage....They've become political terrorists, willing to say or do anything to prevent the country from reaching a consensus on one of its most serious domestic problems."

After describing what's actually in the various proposals (as opposed to the blustering hyperbole and lies supplied by the right), Pearlstein concludes:

Health reform is a test of whether this country can function once again as a civil society -- whether we can trust ourselves to embrace the big, important changes that require everyone to give up something in order to make everyone better off. Republican leaders are eager to see us fail that test. We need to show them that no matter how many lies they tell or how many scare tactics they concoct, Americans will come together and get this done.

If health reform is to be anyone's Waterloo, let it be theirs.

Sadly, the likely reform will be as Klein described it, "pretty modest," and not "worth this controversey and rage." It's hard to muster the troops to support something devoid of meaning and largely inconsequential. Unless, of course, you poison the troops with birth certificates and Red-baiting.

Jay Stevens :: Let it be their Waterloo
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Objectivity Waterloo and Pearlstein (0.00 / 0)
I thought Pearlstein's schoolmarm finger wag was thin at best.  Until the mechanics of how it all works are revealed all we have is speculation. People are applying previous battle scars and history to fill in the blanks. AND there is a political element that exists on any issue where opportunity exists. Obama is primarily at fault here.  His leadership is couched only in broad brush strokes and being caught with fibs as Fact Check points. His telling people to shut and and sit down because they don't parrot his spiel doesn't help either after he speaks bi-partisanship and inclusion.

As to the troubling accusations of threats, catch the bastards and show them a cell.  The African-American man who went to the hospital after his injuries received for passing out flags is a prime example. The purple shirts that were arrested for the violence should receive appropriate justice. Did the threats you point to come AFTER this incident, I don't know.  But I do know these things tend to spiral where retaliation begets retaliation. Finger pointing is helpful as finger painting at that point

Beyond the threats, violence, and arrests there is this:  http://thehill.com/leading-the...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Several Democratic senators, however, have been careful not to dismiss the protests as mere public relations stunts.

Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) pointedly disagreed with her leaders in a message posted on her Twitter page.

"I disagree that the people showing concern over some healthcare proposals are 'manufactured' Real folks, strong opinions," she wrote.

When asked during a Fox News interview whether strategists have manufactured the strong feelings expressed at town-hall meetings, Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.) said: "In the town hall meeting I had, that was not the case.

"People have strong views about healthcare reform," he said. "The overwhelming majority of Americans want to participate. They want to know how it affects them, and what it will do with their health insurance through what it will do with their healthcare costs. Those are legitimate questions."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

As I have said before on another post, I think it is important not to conflate the fringe elements, whether right or left, with the middle.  People do want change, but when anger replaces substance bad things happen when they fill in the blanks. More and more Obama is no longer labeling the effort as healthcare reform, but health insurance reform.

More and more I think the process is flawed as I have discussed previously. I strongly believe in the dual path (healthcare treatment deliver and healthcare financing) processes to sort all this out. Just my opinion, and only MY opinion.  


I have to laugh at this: (0.00 / 0)
"being caught with fibs"

Sarah Palin would just laugh that off as "Gotcha Politics." As the titular head of the GOP, Sarah's words might as well speak for all politicians. When did you every know a politician to speak the truth at all times? Never. Obama is no different than any other politician in this regard.

Sometimes I think that conservatives believe the koolaid about dems thinking Obama to be a new breed of politician. And so they expect the rest of us to cringe when facts are called into play. Hardly...

And i do agree with you that the whole reform effort is winding down into a mild insurance reform package that is going to greatly benefit the insurance industry. I too think the process is flawed, but for different reasons than you do. I believe it is crony capitalism that is running our government right now. Which is why we have the problems that we have, and the solutions provided to those problems only involve enriching mega-corporations.


[ Parent ]
It's telling (0.00 / 0)
when the only defense of Obama for fibbing about healthcare, as Fact Check documents, is to say, "yeah, but, but... Palin!"


[ Parent ]
Hey, dual standards and all... (0.00 / 0)
you know. Why would I defend Obama if he's being a politician? That's what politicians do. Talk around the facts so as to not be pinned down.

I'm an independent. Left wing indy for sure, but I'm not a dem party guy. If The issue is serious, and they're lying, like "weapons of mass destruction... a mushroom cloud" type of lying, then that's different.

But if the goal of accountability is to assure that we have a president that speaks nothing but perfect truth, well then, that's an unattainable goal, and is "gotcha politics."


[ Parent ]
JC --"I'm not a dem party guy" (0.00 / 0)
I guess the "Yeah but, but...Palin!" argument is what indies, such as yourself, respond with when discussing Obama.

Now, what part of his lying about healthcare reform is NOT serious when it affects ALL of us, carries about a $1T price tag, and seems like it will disappoint and upset just about everyone?  


[ Parent ]
I thing Craig Moore is missing (0.00 / 0)
something...first thing...Obama has not put forward ANY health care reform plan...zip.  In fact, he has been consistent in calling for affordable, accessible health care..nothing more..leaving the details to Congress...and the last I checked that was their role... Second, we don't know how much the final plan will cost, nor do we have any idea what it will contain and how many of us it will affect..

[ Parent ]
Sage, you are missing (0.00 / 0)
that I have said the same thing.  Obama has no plan.  Look back through my comments.

[ Parent ]
What, (0.00 / 0)
You think he should have followed the same strategy that Clinton did? Walk into Congress with a full plan all laid out? Didn't work then, won't work now.

Obama has a plan. But he isn't showing his cards. He's trying to get congress into a conference committee, then go in and strong arm everybody into giving him as much of his plan as possible.

I've said before that this is a strategy fraught with peril. But it is what it is coming down to. And it is chock full of "trust me to get the best deal done I can."

He'll either get a plan, and everybody can deal with its reality as it gets implemented, and whether or not it meets his campaign pledge goals. Or Congress will fail to pass a bill, and the dems will be vilified for being a bunch of weaklings, which is what all of the republicans want. They'd rather have a political victory than a bipartisan bill. To the republicans, a bipartisan bill means that democrats agree to pass a republican bill. But that ain't going to happen.

So all of this slow down, start over stuff just isn't going to go anywhere. The train has left the station, either get on it, derail it, or just watch. But there ain't another train waiting to leave to rescue the first, or to take over. This is a one time shot again.


[ Parent ]
What??? (0.00 / 0)
JC -- "Obama has a plan."
JC -- "He'll either get a plan..."

Either he has a plan, or he is waiting for someone to tell him what his plan is.  ;)

And now it's no longer about healthcare reform.  It's about health insurance reform. Will someone please step and give him a plan?


[ Parent ]
"He'll either get a plan" (0.00 / 0)
[from congress that he can sign], and...

Brain fart. Sorry

--------
Forum formatting's going to blow out. start a new thread if you want to continue... Sure would be nice if we could get the formatting issue straightened out.


[ Parent ]
At the risk of repeating JC (0.00 / 0)
Obama has a plan, but it is a political one.  The legislative plan is not his offer.  Since you seem to have forgotten Craig, part of the reason we're in the mess we're in because we allowed a President to tell Congress what to do.  Did you think we were joking when we called Bush 'anti-Constitutional'?

Unlike some around these parts, I don't find having a political plan to be a bad thing.  In fact, it's how we've built this country over the last 200 years.  Some plans are bad, some aren't.  Obama has never wavered on his plan, despite your weak attributions of fibbing.  His plan is to get the best health reform he can, written by the body Constitutionally responsible for writing law and funding it.  Regardless of the fact that I believe Congress to be a clown car full of Bozos, I tend to think Obama's plan is a pretty damned good one.

So please, by all means, continue to point out that 'Obama has no plan'.  JC, muself and others will continue to clarify to you that yes he does, it's just not what you want.

JC:

This is a one time shot again.

That is the most marvelously ironic thing I've seen written at this website in quite some time.


[ Parent ]
Broad brush strokes (0.00 / 0)
of pastel feel good colors are not a plan.  Spinning rhetoric to recast healthcare reform as health insurance reform is not substance. It's vacuous leadership jacketed in politics.  The result is the thrashing around mess we have now with everyone upset and not knowing which way to go.  

I give you that Obama is playing politics rather than leading here.  BTW, I could have sworn I read where you reminded others when they mentioned Obamacare you responded that there is no Obama plan.  Guess I was wrong.


[ Parent ]
Willful equivocation. (0.00 / 0)
Craig, you appear to think that all plans are created equal, and the only one that matters is the one you demand to know about at the moment.

To say that Obama has not offered a health care plan does not, in any way, mitigate his support for another plan that is on the table.  Nor does it make that plan his.  If you wish to make sense of this (or to anyone else) you might wish to be specific about exactly which plan you're deriding at the moment.  Seriously, facts are you friends.

BTW, I could have sworn I read where you reminded others when they mentioned Obamacare you responded that there is no Obama plan.  Guess I was wrong.

You weren't wrong.  You're just waffling about a fear term used by the opponents of any reform.  Their interest is only partly to kill health reform.  Mostly, their interest is to tie Obama to it such that when they sink reform, they will sink the object of their spite.  There is no "Obamacare".  If there is, perhaps you'd like to define it for us.  Of course, you wouldn't do it at ECW; I strongly dount you'll do it here.  

And I'm certain that even you can concede how ridiculous it is to talk about broad brush strokes while using the phrase "we have now with everyone upset and not knowing which way to go" in the same weak breath.  No, Craig, not everyone is upset.  And those who are have an entire industry of people employed to make certain that they are.  I'm not just writing about the right here. Many on the left have a solid stake in promoting FUD as well.  


[ Parent ]
What? (0.00 / 0)
"More and more Obama is no longer labeling the effort as healthcare reform, but health insurance reform."

Can't say that I have seen this anywhere...do you have some links ("more and more")

"As I have said before on another post, I think it is important not to conflate the fringe elements, whether right or left, with the middle."

You aren't suggesting that the "Just Say No" Republicans are in the middle? Because they aren't...by ANYONE's standards they are very far right...and they are spending all their time getting what's left of the Republican base(the crazies that are often called "Birthers"....the town hall disruptor's, the racist) riled up...


[ Parent ]
And Sage.... (0.00 / 0)
Politico noticed the same thing.  http://www.politico.com/news/s...

>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you haven't been paying attention, you might have missed it. But with the substitution of one word, President Barack Obama was able to redirect his health care
message from uninsured Americans to those who already have insurance.

In his Wednesday night address, Obama talked about "health insurance reform" a noticeable shift from the "health care reform" he had been talking up until late last week.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


[ Parent ]
Some reports say it is just a change in wordage, (0.00 / 0)
not substance. Tactical. I think it is a bunch of CYA for when the conference committee melts down and we get a weak, watered down bill that is nothing but some mild insurance reform and a bunch of corporate welfare in the guise of bring some minor percentage of the uninsured into the system.

[ Parent ]
When anger replaces substance.... (0.00 / 0)
It would be nice to have a realistic proposal from the republicans as to how they would improve the current mess that is "health care in America"....but...and this is ONLY MY OPINION...the Repubs. are not interested in substance, nor are they interested in solving problems...in fact, they don't think there is a problem with health care...

Thus...they give us anger...lots and lots of anger.  They are a sinking ship of a political party...I wonder if they realize that they are taking democracy down with them?


Realistic? Never (0.00 / 0)
Krauthammer put the conservative position succinctly a few days ago:

The plan is so simple it doesn't even have the requisite three parts. Just two: radical tort reform and radically severing the link between health insurance and employment.

(1) Tort reform... What to do? Abolish the entire medical-malpractice system. Create a new social pool from which people injured in medical errors or accidents can draw. The adjudication would be done by medical experts, not lay juries giving away lottery prizes at the behest of the liquid-tongued John Edwardses who pocket a third of the proceeds.

(2) Real health-insurance reform: Tax employer-provided health care benefits and return the money to the employee with a government check to buy his own medical insurance, just as he buys his own car or home insurance.

Pretty basic. And unrealistic as to accomplishing the goals that have been set out.


[ Parent ]
Say what? Give them a check to buy insurance? (0.00 / 0)
Someone wants to give me $500-$600 a month to buy my own medical insurance?  Lets see...thats roughly $6000 a year....and there's how many Americans?

And when the costs of providing care goes up 20% a year will I get an additional $100 a month next year?

Yeah...this plan is a real good one!

I have a real simple plan for the Republicans...it won't take 900-1000 pages to spell out the details...it can be stated in one sentence....

"Expand Medicare to anyone that wants it."


[ Parent ]
Obama's Waterloo (0.00 / 0)
My biggest fear about this whole arguement over health care reform is that the antagonists on the right are playing on people's emotions, and not their intellect, in order to stir up violence--if it achieves their goal of maintaining the status quo (think big pharmaceuticals, big insurance, trial lawyers, and political parties bent on destroying the "other" party).

I consider the talk radio and FOX News bigwigs of the far right fringe, i.e., Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Bill O'Reilly, Bernie Goldberg, and numerous others to be having the effect of shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.  These people are continuing to spread false rumors, and stoking the flames of people's emotions--rather than appealing to their intellect--in order to create public chaos.  This is so dangerous, and if deaths occur, including the attempted--or actual--assination of our President or other Democratic leaders, then these people should stand trial for murder.

I think that town hall meetings should be places where the lawmaker can explain his or her beliefs and actions, and take questions, posed respectably, from both sides of the issue.  Of course people have the right to disagree--and should be able to freely disagree about issues--but they must not let themselves be led down the garden path to unreasonable violence that has been prompted by misinformation and out-and-out lies by people who target your emotions, and not your intellect.

People must question the premises put forth by t.v. and radio advertising on both sides of the issue.  They need to understand that if they participate in "tea parties," or by other "interest groups," that they are being manipulated from afar by people who have ulterior and hidden motives, always totally unrelated to the name they have given their particular group.

If people attend these town hall meetings, or attend public appearances of President Obama, they should leave their ugly signs at home.  Pose questions at appropriate times when asked, but always remember to treat the President with respect and honor--even if you don't agree with his positions.

Be on guard that you do not rely on your emotions to guide your behavior; rely on your intellect, and seek the truth behind the lies being bandied about.


Sarah Palin's "Death Panels" & Killing the Elderly (0.00 / 0)
Yesterday, I heard that Sarah Palin had twitted about "death panels" who will decide to kill people with Down Syndrome, or abort fetuses known to have Down Syndrome.  I have seen nothing in any of the health care proposals that would lead me to believe there will be "Death Panels."  Where in the world do these crazy views come from? And why would someone who wants to be taken seriously in the political arena say such a thing?

The other item I take issue with is the plan to offer senior citizens the opportunity to discuss making a "Living Will" with their physicians, or perhaps a hospital social worker.  Living Wills are more properly called "Advance Directives."

The purpose of a Living Will/Advance Directive is to prevent being placed on a life support system if there is no hope of recovery, i.e., being placed on a ventilator because your brain is no longer able to tell your lungs to breath, and is unable to inform you how to feed yourself, and you must be kept alive with feeding tubes, and your brain scans show no activity, meaning you are incapable of having thoughts.

A vegetative state as described above occurs from accidents, heart attacks or strokes, or some other occurence that denies the brain of oxygen long enough to destroy its ability to function in a meaningful way.  Think the case of Terri Schiavo a few years ago.  After her death, the autopsy showed that the part of her brain that controlled the above functions, had actually dissolved!

I don't want to have a heart attack or stroke and be deprived of oxygen for 4 minutes or longer before EMTs arrive and start to resusitate me.  I prepared a Living Will more than three years ago.  You can download the form from the Montana Dept. of Human Services, fill it out to your specifications, have your signature witnessed, give copies to your doctor, nearby hospitals, family members, etc., and then you can forward it to the Montana Dept. of Justice and their End Of Life Registry.  They will then send issue your directive a distinctive identifying number and send you two or three stickers with this number that you place on the back of your driver's license and your health insurance or Medicare/Medicaid cards.

If you were to be so profoundly injured in an auto accident far from home, and the medical personnel finds this ID number on your insurance card or driver's license, then they can check with the Montana Justice Department for a copy of the Living Will and proceed accordingly--even if you die in an accident or have a stroke in another state.  This document PROTECTS YOU from possibly being kept alive for years and years in a vegetative state.

Additionally, the State of Montana has another program named "Comfort One" that directs EMTs on ambulance crews that you have a living will on file and they are not to resusitate if it is known that you have been "dead" for longer than the brain can survive.  It also obviously states that if there is any chance, in a small chance that you can survive the trauma, they will provide all the necessary medical care to get you to the nearest hospital for life-saving treatment.

This is common sense, and all senior citizens should make these provisions.  I am all for the education of seniors and hope that this provision is explained to the public more fully, and that the people lying about this option are met head on with truth. I have seen too many t.v. shots of senior citizens at these town hall meetings complaining and shouting about policies that will "put seniors to death."

Obviously, if people aren't kept in a vegetative state in nursing homes for years on end, this would be a cost saving in terms of health care, and it would be a blessing for the families.

I know whereof I speak, as I am 70 years old and have a terminal illness.  I do have a Living Will/Advance Directive that is registered with the state of Montana, and copies have been filed in my local hospitals, and with my physicians.


JC, I was just having a little fun at your expense (0.00 / 0)
Let's talk about what a plan is.

In my mind a plan is a statement of action that sets forth where the starting point is, what the hoped for ending point is, and what are the action steps, the how, to complete the journey.  If I say I am hungry and I am need something to eat, I don't have a plan.  How do I intend to find, grow, or buy the food bring to my mouth? What are the action steps that define the journey and make it a plan?

Here are the Obama brush strokes.  It is not a plan.  http://www.barackobama.com/iss...


~sigh~ (0.00 / 0)
Craig, by now you've been around here long enough to know that if you embed comments too deeply, you break the comment threads.  After that happens, many people who haven't already been driven off by the insider nature of the comments are driven off by the scrolling.  Haven't you noticed that people frequently respond to you by commenting in 'reply' to the comment above yours?

Admittedly, sometimes people seem to break the comments just to silence a conversation or to comment with less likelihood of response.  I assume that you are not that way.  So, since Jay and Matt will likely not request this of you or anyone else, I humbly ask that you have a care for the comments and commenters at this website. Please think of the children ...

;-)


Completely unintentional (0.00 / 0)
Sometimes I hit the wrong button 'Post a Comment' instead of Reply.  I will try to do better. Not all sites follow the same conventions of comment.

[ Parent ]
No No (0.00 / 0)
It's hitting 'Reply' that's the problem.  It's new comments that are the solution.

[ Parent ]
Got it. (0.00 / 0)
I'm going to step back for awhile and let others have their say without interference.  Write a column at your shop and I'll give it a go.

[ Parent ]
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