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Barack Obama
"Lincoln Sells Out Slaves"
by: Rob Kailey - Sep 13
1 Comments
If You Haven't Seen This
by: Rob Kailey - Apr 28
5 Comments
Impeach the President?
by: Rob Kailey - Mar 16
15 Comments
It's the system, stupid!
by: Jay Stevens - Oct 25
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Rob Kailey is a working schmuck with no ties or affiliations to any governmental or political organizations, save those of sympathy.

The real death panel

by: Jay Stevens

Mon Aug 10, 2009 at 18:37:08 PM MST


A little reminder of why health care reform is important, and why the lies about reform are important:

Don't talk to me about death panels, Sarah Palin....

In your free market wonderland everyone somehow manages to get healthcare, even those who are poor or live in isolated areas, though the poor and isolated in your own state required assistance from the federal government.

And despite all of this, you appear blithely unaware that the free market healthcare system we have now does, indeed, have "death panels." I've been part of a death panel conversation. I know about death panels.

You have no idea what it's like to be called into a sterile conference room with a hospital administrator you've never met before and be told that your mother's insurance policy will only pay for 30 days in ICU. You can't imagine what it's like to be advised that you need to "make some decisions," like whether your mother should be released "HTD" which is hospital parlance for "home to die," or if you want to pay out of pocket to keep her in the ICU another week. And when you ask how much that would cost you are given a number so impossibly large that you realize there really are no decisions to make. The decision has been made for you. "Living will" or no, it doesn't matter. The bank account and the insurance policy have trumped any legal document.

If this isn't a "death panel" I don't know what is.

H/t, digby, who adds this:

...since Good People, Real Americans, have health insurance, only bad people have to worry about this, which is how it should be. The problem is that if the government takes over they're going ration by taking away the Good People's health care and giving it to welfare queens and illegal immigrants who don't deserve it.

(All Good People have health are? Maybe not. Or maybe Good People solicit donations after mauling ministers...er, I mean, after a mauling by union "thugs"...though he looked pretty sprightly after the "attack." Funny how he's wheelchair bound and unable to speak the next day? D*mn those lingering funny bone injuries...)

Jay Stevens :: The real death panel
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Instead of a lie, just a sad story (0.00 / 0)
In Oregon they have:  http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/heal...

This is one woman's story who was insured under her state's plan: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/s...

She received a letter denying her coverage for further treatment but was offered payment for assisted suicide drugs by her govt health insurance plan.  Oregon has a unique suicide law, but the govt approach was underwhelming in my opinion.

Jay, sorry about your Mother and your choices.  That was a truly horrendous experience you faced.


Her situation would not have been any different if she had (0.00 / 0)
private insurance...a life long smoker (to bad she didn't work for Safeway), she had lung cancer, and the drug prescribed would have added 4-6 months, tops, to her life...

Do you seriously think a private provider would have paid for these drugs to give this terminally ill woman another 4 months to smoke her cigs?

I'm sorry, but as a staunch conservative, I do not see where spending another nickel on this person would be cost effective.


[ Parent ]
So the House Plan (0.00 / 0)
says after a certain age you can meet with someone to do some "end of life" planing....good idea!  Hardly a "death panel", but hey, some people are prone to exaggeration.

My mother died last year...age 92....when she was in her 80's we started talking to her about how she wanted to be treated...how she wanted to die...what sort of service, where she wanted to be buried...

Thus, she knew...and more importantly, we knew, what she wanted...

Whether this should be included in a health care reform bill or not...is a good question. Should we include "wellness" concerns?  Should we do more to mandate healthier life styles? You see...Mr. Moore...you don't seem to want it both ways.  You seem to want to say...her are your life style choices...choose well and you get cheaper health insurance...choose poorly and you get expensive health care insurance...but hey...isn't that the status quo?


Read my previous statements on change (0.00 / 0)
Sage, perhaps you have missed my comments promoting a better process to pursue change.  I wrote about a dual path that would analyze the healthcare delivery side and the healthcare financing side.  I suggested that panels of healthcare experts participate in identifying what works, whats broken, and what would improve the two sides, and how best the two sides of the coin best reconcile to provide the optimum result as each side impacts the other. I've also promoted building on the Safeway Foods wellness model.  The current hodge podge in the political blender guarantees an underwhelming outcome.  

[ Parent ]
Don't forget (0.00 / 0)
the consumer side. Actually it's the most important part.

[ Parent ]
moore reminds me of gollum......... (0.00 / 0)
"yesss, he wants his precious (status quo) he does...."

My brother's insurance company refused to pay for his last day in the hospital ... (0.00 / 0)
They said the doctors should have put him in Hospice (where people go do die) one day before they did. Apparently the people with the BS's in business had a better idea of fate than the doctors and nurses who cared for him. God they're good!

We should be naming names here ... (0.00 / 0)
That was done by New West insurance, by nameless faceless  bureaucrats.  

[ Parent ]
Appeal the decision (0.00 / 0)
Make them demonstrate they are within their rights and have not violated the contract.  If they are acting in bad faith pursue it with the auditor's office and go after their license. File a complaint with the Office of Consumer Protection.  http://doj.mt.gov/consumer/con...  Then sue the bastards!!!!!! and seek heavy punitives.

[ Parent ]
Yeah, right. Better yet, pass single payer. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
can't sue the health insurance industry craig.... (0.00 / 0)
their lobbyists took care of that for them years ago by making them all exempt. pay attention craig. you are slipping....or maybe you hope we are too ignorant to believe your pro health industry tripe couched in neo-con slickster jargon...

[ Parent ]
Balooney Pbear (0.00 / 0)
Prove your claim that they are exempt from bad faith litigation after exhausting appeals process.  

[ Parent ]
Please translate. What is "bad faith "litigation?" (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Insurers and bad faith (0.00 / 0)
http://law.freeadvice.com/insu...

Now, ERISA does present a problem where there is employer provided health insurance. The avenue of redress is through ERISA procedures.  However, the issue of "bad faith" under ERISA is not  completely clear and is fact dependent.  See:  http://law.freeadvice.com/insu...

Outside of ERISA there is no similar limitations that I am aware of.


[ Parent ]
So since most people get their private health insurance through their employer, there are limitations (0.00 / 0)
on most people to redress through the courts?

So what was your point given that ERISA provides the scumbag private insurance vampires with near immunity to screw you over should they choose?


[ Parent ]
Non-ERISA health plans (0.00 / 0)
Steve, my initial comment was to Mark.  I believe his brother is a priest. Many churches have non-ERISA health plans.  Something to check.  However, making a fuss with the state regulator controlling New West's license is not controlled by ERISA.  The object is to get the claim paid.  

[ Parent ]
or in the view of the health insurer.... (0.00 / 0)
the object is to not pay the claim....

semantics will only get you so far, craig. any good attorney will tell you that the forest of obstacles that congress has been bribed to make the claimant and his attorney jump through, up and around does effectively stop any normal person's ability to sue them....that is why they give their lobbyists brief cases full of cash-to effectively make them exempt from the law.

but i will make you a proposition. i will consider dropping my  health reform advocacy if the laws which protect all these slime devils were rescinded back to their enactments and if the insurers were liable for triple damages to each claimant and or the claimant's heirs and families for every single wrongful death due to withholding coverage and or refusing to pay claims and or any and all bodily harm inflicted due to same.

also, clients and their lawyers should be paid triple for their time and expenses for successfully appealing decisions by the parasites which withhold coverage and or refuse to pay claims.

furthermore, any time health insurers usurp the doctor's orders for treatments and deny coverage, there should be triple damages paid to the doctor and the client for any death or bodily harm caused by any delay in treatment.

in addition to these payments to the client, the client's lawyer, and the client's primary physician, there should be penalties of 10,000.00 per infraction paid to the hospital where the client was treated.

if you and the other status quoers agree to leveling the playing field and making health insurers answer to civil law for their reprehensible behavior, then i would feel much better about supporting private health insurance, but until they play by the same rules that any responsible business must play by, i want the government to step in and regulate their behavior. no more obstacles for client's to achieve their legal due can be tolerated.

as long as we continue to reward bad behavior we only perpetuate it.
   


[ Parent ]
If you are lucky. Tougher to do when you are sick. Hard to afford the lawyer and the operation they deny you (0.00 / 0)
They know that you suppose?

Craig ... can't you see the point? (0.00 / 0)
It is not that we can or cannot litigate against insurers. That's besides the point. Take this away from this discussion: Private health insurers are rationing our own health care to us, taking 20-40% off the top. Every time they decide not to cover someone or something, their bottom line increases. Every time they rescind someone's policy, their bottom line increases.

It boils down to this: Their business model presents a conflict of interest. By definition, they cannot give us good service, because doing so is not in their best interest.

Do you see? We have constructed a defective and illogical system. Removal of the profit motive from health care would fix it.

Why the hell should we have to sue them? Do you see the inanity of your remarks?


Mark do you not see the inanity (0.00 / 0)
of trying to seek and redress or rememdy from a govt entity that is immune from suit?  What will you do when the healthcare czars make decisions you dispute?  

[ Parent ]
Pbear ERISA (0.00 / 0)
Your rants are off the rails.  ERISA is not an exemption, but federal pre-emption. The Supreme Ct, not lobbyists as you claimed, settled the matter.

IF it were up to me I would have ERISA modified to either fashion an appropriate remedy mirroring state remedies for bad faith, or exempt employer health plans from ERISA.  Only about 63% of health plans come from employers and not all of those are controlled by ERISA.  There are exemptions built into ERISA.  There are also small employers that form a "group." However, those small employers don't subsidize the group plan but participate as a fellow employee. Without an employer subsidized benefit, there is no ERISA control.

Don't let the facts get in the way of your BS.


the right wing extremist's constant diversions via apologia for the parasites notwithstanding.... (0.00 / 0)
i think the majority of americans want health care reform regulated and reformed craig. but i do appreciate your knowldedge of the subject.  

Wrong again Poohbear. (0.00 / 0)
When I said, "Sue the bastards!!!" and you interpret that as an apology.  

[ Parent ]
you mean like when i said you can't sue the bastards... (0.00 / 0)
and you started back-pedaling furiously....

i don't envy your job craig....having to defend that pile of maggots you put so much faith in. must be hard.  


[ Parent ]
The private insurance scum and their apologists have got to go. Enough! (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Poohbear, you can neither read nor comprehend (0.00 / 0)
But you shovel BS like a stable hand.

[ Parent ]
If brains were electricity, you couldn't light a one watt bulb, Craig. Hey remember (0.00 / 0)
Joe Pine? The first obnoxious reactionary TV talk show host from the 1960s?

Your insult flung at Poohbear and then my even more cleaver insult flung at you kind of reminds me of that show.

That's funny, isn't it?



[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
The one watt brilliance is what you have demonstrated in your battles with Wulfgar. You remind me of Monty Python's Black Knight:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Perhaps one watt is overly generous.  


[ Parent ]
good times eh craig? (0.00 / 0)
nice to feel the rush of the semantic battle again.
you keep creeping around here with those weasel words of yours to justify insurance companies killing people and ripping them off for profit, right wing racist protesters, and preaching the status quo (couched in weasel words of course)

i gotta hand it to you. you are persistent. but persistence will get you nowhere here. everyone knows your agenda is to delay, deny and derail health care reform. no matter how creatively you phrase it, your cause is to keep the private insurance companies in charge of our health care. that is a losing cause, craig. but keep it up. i do enjoy confronting your obvious tricks and making you show your true colors every now and then.....

as for my reading skills. i don't read lies and as for comprehension....well i comprehend what your goals really are in all those weasel words.

it is always disgusting to me how easily the far right ignores their supposed christian based ethics when it comes to politics. i am sure you are generous in your private life, craig. but it seems reprehensibly selfish to try to stand in the way of health care reform when it is crystal clear that people are suffering needlessly. i leave you with a link to a story about that need.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08...

and hope you can come to terms with the good man that wulfgar met and the person i have debated here recently. rest assured that health care reform will happen. probably not to my satisfaction but these reprehensibly selfish tactics will not work.  


[ Parent ]
Cleaver Insult? (0.00 / 0)
I'm going to have to remember that one.  It's got some serious violence to it.

Heh heh.


[ Parent ]
thanks, steve but i will fight my own battles... (0.00 / 0)
 if you don't mind. small animals occasionally get hurt (semantically speaking) when they get in my way while i am focused on prey. just fair warning....



[ Parent ]
According to Mr Moore, i was my diary on the criminal scumbag insurance companies that led him to our (0.00 / 0)
attention.

You can't expect me to let you have all the fun. I'm mean I'm willing to share. Up to a point.


[ Parent ]
fair enough (0.00 / 0)
carry on. but beware of flying boulders and hurtling logs when i get on a blood spoor....

[ Parent ]
you can have all the dead meat wackos...... (0.00 / 0)
but max is mine.

gotta go. got big swede in a headlock over at 4 & 20.....


[ Parent ]
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