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Barack Obama
"Lincoln Sells Out Slaves"
by: Rob Kailey - Sep 13
1 Comments
If You Haven't Seen This
by: Rob Kailey - Apr 28
5 Comments
Impeach the President?
by: Rob Kailey - Mar 16
15 Comments
It's the system, stupid!
by: Jay Stevens - Oct 25
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Rob Kailey is a working schmuck with no ties or affiliations to any governmental or political organizations, save those of sympathy.

What's the goal of reform, anyway?

by: Jay Stevens

Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 07:02:48 AM MST


I'm always mystified by folks who say that a public option is a "minor" reform - I hardly think they're motivated by insurance money, or greed, or a love of the status quo. I think they genuinely believe the other reform measures - a community standard, say - are much more important. But...why?

Let's start with why folks support a public option. Matt Yglesias:

...the main constituency for health reform consists of people who don't think the present system is fundamentally sound. That's a big part of the reason the public plan element of Obama's proposals has become such an emotional touchstone for the left. The public plan is a fairly modest part of a fairly modest package of reforms, but it's the slice of the package that holds out the prospect of eventual transformation of the system into something quite different and less driven by corporate profits.

The spoken corollary in Yglesias' post is that most folks, while not thinking the system insurance is necessarily sound, are more comfortable with the status quo than with the idea of sweeping and comprehensive reform. That is, there's a real and sizable constituency against, say, single-payer health care (and I'm not talking about Tea Baggers, who are a fringe group of quasi-violent obstructionists). Which also explains why younger politicos - who are more sensitive to consensus-building - readily support the public option, not single-payer health care.

The most interesting observation - at least for the purposes of this post - was from Ezra Klein:

The primary constituency for health-care reform has a political attachment to it, and in particular, to the public option portion of it. This is not, however, the most obvious constituency for health-care reform. That honor goes to the uninsured, the underinsured, the unemployed and others lower on the income ladder who are likely to directly benefit from the bill, rather than abstractly benefit from seeing their ideological preferences included in the bill.

They, however, are not in the streets or at the town halls. Broadly speaking, they're politically marginalized: They don't vote or march or yell.

Klein, for me, has been one of the more frustrating voices in this debate. He's always dismissed the more ambitious elements of reform as unimportant. What gives?

I think the answer is there in his opinion of who's the "constituency" of health care reform: the dispossessed, the indigent, and the sick. Essentially for Klein et al, it appears they see reform as a kind of assistance program for those that are shut out of the system. Reform addresses the marginalized, drawing them into the status quo, while seeking to curb the worst excesses of the insurance system. It's not transformational. It' doesn't fundamentally alter how we deliver and pay for health care.

It's easy for us to scoff at Klein's limited view of health care reform. But I don't think any of us should overlook the obvious benefits this limited reform would bring to millions. Sure, real and comprehensive reform would benefit these folks more, but even this limited reform is something. The goals of the "incrementalists," or the "insurance reformers," or the "cowardly un-progressives" - or whatever the slur du jour is - are good. Isolated from cost, politics, efficiency, etc & co, it might even be worth supporting.

That's still a long way from saying that this limited reform is acceptable.

For one, as I've argued before, I can't help but think these reforms are, at best, a temporary brake on the degradation of private insurance coverage, and no brake at all on health care costs. The insurance industry has a motive (profit) and the means ($$$) to sidestep regulation. (So they can't discriminate against preexisting health conditions - but what about denying a policy to someone because of their zip code, say?) The public option would act as a brake on this degradation, and an escape outlet for consumers.

For another, implementing an insurance mandate without the public option would be politically disastrous for Democrats, progressives, and future reform. Read JC's post about his broken ribs. Here's a guy who's been jerked around by private insurers for years: what feelings do you think he's going to experience when he wakes up one morning, suddenly required by law to buy a private insurance policy? There's the rub: most of those who'd benefit from Klein's limited reform will have been dropped from private insurance rolls because of preexisting conditions or age or general health or because they, you know, once used insurance money for a catastrophic event, and I'm guessing pretty much all of whom feel like they've been misled and cheated by their insurers - and you're going to compel these people to buy private insurance again?

That's not even considering the political fallout of an individual mandate (bandied about by the Senate Finance Committee), which would give employers an incentive to drop their benefits programs for employees. Imagine, then, how those voters will feel when they wake up one morning without insurance and compelled by law to purchase an individual policy at a much higher price?

And I don't even bring in all the other arguments - efficiency, cost, the idea of implementing a reform that essentially bribes the private insurance industry to take on the people who are the biggest risks.

Which is the long way of saying that what divides the left on reform isn't knee-jerk and simplistic dichotomies of "true" progressive vs. "false" progressive, or the courageous vs. the faint of heart, or "pure" vs. "corrupt," but in the difference in the way we define the problem to which we're applying a solution.

Jay Stevens :: What's the goal of reform, anyway?
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You don't get it at all ... (1.33 / 3)
People aren't ragging on you because of your lack of "progressive" ness. It's your willingness to accept "incremental" ism as a substitute for true reform. It's a way of getting nothing done in a serious manner. It's a waste of time, and a good way to divert attention from the real scandal - the fact that reform was DOA due to Democrats, who have failed us so thoroughly that we are better served by having our sworn enemies in office.

Do you know what's going to come of this? No single payer, a "public option" that has no teeth, and no cost savings coupled with a mandate that people like me go and buy insurance from the same crooks and weasels who are screwing us to begin with. Romneycare writ large. It's not that you (generic - "Democrats" though you are certainly part of it) have served us in any way with your phony incremental gains that will not matter in the end. It will be this: We were getting a royal screwing from the insurance industry. With your unwitting help, they will no longer even be required to use AstroGlide.

You're not making things better. You're making things worse. Try another line of work.
You screwed us, Jay. You and Your Democrats are the problem.


Yeah, Jay -- you single-handedly elected 60 Democrats just when (0.00 / 0)
Mark T and his army of Trotskyites was on the verge of victory or something...

And the Cheshire Cat is selling some sweet weed.

Reject incrementalism. The revolution is around the corner.

Also, is this your full-time job? I hope you're on food stamps.


[ Parent ]
Mark, blaming Jay Stevens for the current situation... (0.00 / 0)
is perhaps the stupidest thing I have ever seen written on LitW, and there have been some really, really stupid posts and comments on here as of late.

You need to move through the anger, man. And coming from a pissed off activist-type like myself, that's saying something.


[ Parent ]
I said "generic" you ... (4.00 / 1)
Read, dammit.

And Matt - I don't know how I can spell it out for you clearer - I'm not a revolutionary. I don't expect meaningful reform. I just didn't expect, with 60 of you guys and a president, to get the drubbing we're getting.

there's no incremental progress. You're beat in every way you can be beat. Do something else for a while, float a river, reflect.  


[ Parent ]
Give up now? But we are so close to getting a mini public option that covers 10 mil in 10 years, a mandate to give the (4.00 / 1)
insurance companies a bonanza in both public and private money, and the Dems will have lots of funding from the health care industrial complex for as long as we can make this scam pay.

Why give up now?


[ Parent ]
Fauly assumptions lead to bad outcomes (0.00 / 0)
I'm always mystified by folks who say that a public option is a "minor" reform - I hardly think they're motivated by insurance money, or greed, or a love of the status quo. I think they genuinely believe the other reform measures - a community standard, say - are much more important. But...why?

First of all, folks who say that a public pool is a minor reform would be who? Obama, Matt singer, Ezra Klien, and the Sect. of HHS, right? All those folks have pretty good access to health care, no bankruptcy's on that list. Obama's mom is a personal angle  - But what the common denominator is all these people are Democratic Party faithful. They know that the public option is a scam and a sham. That's why they won't define it because if they did, they would be in real trouble. So they stay very generic, both as to why they supported it in the beginning and as to why they are willing to let it go now.

Two

Let's start with why folks support a public option.
Nobody except policy wonks ever heard of the Public Option before last January. Oh some may have read Obama's health plan, or Hill's or even Kerry's in 04, but there wasn't anybody anywhere dedicated to a public option. at all. In fact then and now, all the passion is with single payer. Public option is the second choice, of everyone, including you. The sales pitch? Public Option will lead to single payer. Thus, public option is a made up device that has no organic following. It's like miracle whip, or chicory. It's a substitute for what people really want. It's now got a carrot and a stick aspect to it. The carrot of course is it's sold as leading to single payer. The stick is, holy sh*t if we don't get a public option, the insurance companies are going to eat us alive with this "reform." It's now the only thing saving us from what's worse than the staus quo - complete domination by the insurance criminals. So we have to have it or parish! But it's not what we want.It's what we have been pushed into - by people like you.

Klien, blah blah blah no constituency
7 out 10 medical bankruptcies are people who have insurance. Do you and Klien think people with insurance don't vote? School teachers laid off because insurance costs cut into budgets. You think people with kids don't vote?

And this misconception you labor under Jay. That single payer is some small time fringe idea with a marginal following, where does that come from? The Governor said publicly that a majority of Montanans prefer single payer. But you don't believe the governor, because he obviously has no handle on what Montanans think? Instead you believe Matt Singer. Matt says young people aren't that into single payer. You believe it. You echo that. However, at the OFA meeting where about forty people showed up, almost the entire crowd who weren't part of the organizers were for single payer, and that included the younger people who showed. They weren't screaming for the Public Option, they were wondering why the organizers were trying to divert them from discussing how we get single payer.

So what we have is Matt who is organizing on the PO, and he says youth want the PO. Can you say conflict of interest? But then again, none of the youth are turning out to organize for the PO. Can you say denial?

In this way Jay, you are like Jed. You are for single payer, everyone you know practically is for single payer, all the SEIU people working on the public option are for single payer, and yet you are sure that not that many people are for single payer. What gives?

There are a sizable amount of corporate power people against single payer. They own senators, tv stations, newspapers, and insurance companies.

But in terms of actual numbers of people they are in the minority.

59% of doctors are for single payer.

What's really really wrong with the public option is that as written right now, it's a complete scam. The CBO rightly points out it won't save a dime, it isn't accessible, and it will only be available at no real benefit to a tiny tiny "sliver" of Americans.

What is the Public option Jay? What will it do? How will it do it? Not in theory but with what's written down on paper. Until you actually read the bills, analyze the bills and answer those questions, you are part of the problem. You are part of the great American propaganda machine that's pushing smoke and mirrors.

It has nothing to do with how "progressive" you are at all. Everyone I know whose caught up in the propaganda effort is very progressive, They have just been led astray some how and they don't know how to get back home because they are so far gone.

And I don't see how we could ever possibly get a "good" "strong" public option until people look at what's written and honestly evaluate why we would or wouldn't want that? I mean is what you want a public option that covers 10 million at most with no savings by 2019? Is that your goal? It's not my goal now and never was. And it was never what was held out as second best. You have been led down the primrose path and it's getting dark.


Thanks Jay (3.00 / 1)
Seriously. You shouldn't have to get beat up for trying to stimulate a good discussion. I think that a lot like me, you're trying to get to the root of this conundrum we're in. I don't see you as dug in with a personal position as most here--including me.

What I have a hard time with is people with insurance telling the one's without how it is, and how it is going to be, and to be happy with what you're going to get, cause that's all there is... This whole debate has turned partially into the liberal quagmire of righting social wrongs. You can right a social wrong either by addressing the symptoms, or addressing the causes.

Treating symptoms is easy. There are a gazillion different public and private ways this is being done. Food stamps, Medicaid, Public Health clinics, soup kitchens, homeless shelters. Non profit service orgs, etc. Even conservatives and right wing whackos find a way to soothe whatever conscience they may have left by helping out somewhere, if only to flip flapjacks at the county fair 4H booth. Even my dad--a die hard limbaughian/o'rellian conservative--rang the Salvation Army bell at Christmas time.

People assuage their consciences by supporting these sorts of mechanisms. But assuaging does little to change the system--to provide reform. But they do make differences in people's lives. Take them all away, and see what our society would be like without. You get the picture.

Addressing the root causes of poverty, and social injustice, on the other hand, is a big challenge. Think Equal Rights Act. Civil Rights Act. Clean air and water or Right to a Healthy Environment acts and preambles.

As long as health care reform only seeks to address the symptoms, and not effect root changes, then it is just a palliative. A palliative, for sure that may help people, but not something to write home to mom about.

The heath care debate, by and large, is taking place among those who have insurance, and are not struggling with the catastrophic effects of not having it. That's why people like Klein can look at the overall picture and see incrementalism not for what it really is--baby steps--but for what the liberal conscience wants to see. And they want to see the overall quantity of suffering reduced. And this reform may just do that. "So be happy wit watcha git, godammit," (my dad's conservative admonishments ring in my ears)

But when you look at the system from a point of safety with a jaundiced eye, you neglect seeing how it affects the individual. Does the panhandler feel like his life is going to change when he sees his mark on the streets putting his change in the "Real Change" bucket instead of in his hat? Of course not.

Likewise, people like me see this minimal incrementalist approach to health care reform (insurance reform?) as meaningless, because it doesn't touch our lives. It will make no day-to-day difference in our sufferings--collective and individual.

I'll be honest. I'm looking at this debate as much through a "what will it do for me" lens, as through a "what will it do for society" lens. But when I look at myself, I realize that my condition represents millions of people similarly abused by our current health care system. So I feel impelled to speak out, not just for myself, but for others.

And I just don't see reform moving to a place where it addresses root causes, makes fundamental shifts in our social structure. It isn't transformational like the other social and environmental causes I watched and fought for.

So I find Klein's and other minor incrementalists' arguments to be non persuasive--take what you get 'cause it's better than nothing. I don't want the suffering that I and others have experienced to be assuaged by liberals thinking that providing insurance reform to the middle class is a meaningful thing in our lives. It isn't.

And if it stands in the stead of transformational politics, then it is an obstacle. Much of the debate here, when it isn't personal, revolves around whether or not the incrementalism we are seeing is going to eventually provide rewards--move us towards the Civil Rights Act-style holy grail of health care reform nirvana. Whether or not our choices today move us closer to that goal of social equality in health care, or if it impedes it by entrenching the status quo by providing palliative relief to a society that has become too corrupt to effect "Real Change," that is the progressive's dilemma.


Intersting perspective JC the charity vs power realignment consideration. (0.00 / 0)
One thing I feel actual anger about, is the fact that Obama lied to us repeatedly.

He said he would listen to all ideas, regardless of ideology, and then he proceeded to completely ignore that. He pretended to have national listening meetings, and he then manufactured the results. For instance, they kept all kinds of numbers and statistics about such arcane information as how many health care providers showed up and they made maps of where people showed up, but for some reason they didn't count the number of attendees who favored single payer.

The whole process was a charade. They produced  the results they wanted by how they manipulated the information and how they  manipulated the attendees.

So the whole "reform" has been top down, expert driven, but my experts weren't allowed to be there to represent me. Labor had their experts, the health care industrial complex had there experts, but my experts were shut out. And the end product reflects that. And my opposition to the end product reflects that as well. And i don't think I'm alone. I think a whole lot of people feel they were cut out , purposely, because we could have possibly interfered with the predetermined outcome.

Max saw this first hand when the finance committee came to Montana. They were surprised by what people told them only because they had successfully excluded those very people up to that point.

So, the "change" isn't real change, it's corporate approved change. It isn't hard won. It's wheeled and dealed change. It isn't organic, it's plastic.

It's not change I can believe in, and apparently neither can a lot of other people. My gut feeling is the so-called PO was never supposed to make it into the final bill. Romney care was the goal from the start. Matt would seem to agree on some level when he wrote 'it became more politically than functionally important.'

But America didn't elect Romney. I didn't elect Romney. They just cut benefits for 30,000 people on Romney care in MA. I don't see Americans longingly dreaming about the day they can move to MA where the grass is greener and they can finally get their operation, like people do about Canada, or Britain, or other more civilized countries.

Anybody know anybody who has moved to Massachusetts so they can get health care? Since the reforms like no pre-existing conditions and guaranteed issue and modified community rating are so important to people?

Why haven't there been stories of people flooding to MA from all over the country, if this is the promised land? Or have i just missed them?


[ Parent ]
You are not alone (0.00 / 0)
Steve - If one thing has become obvious during the long and rambling debate on health care here on LiTW, it's that you are not alone in your disappointment with the lack of accomplishment we are seeing from the Democrat-controlled Congress and the Obama presidency. Nor are you alone in your desire to see true, "universal" health care in this nation.  We're just having to fight like hell to remind others that these were the promises made -- and now, the promises broken.

[ Parent ]
gap between hope and reality... (0.00 / 0)
I hate to say this...but where the h*ll did you get the idea from the election that Obama was going to transform health care???

The current proposals are much more progressive than what Obama -- or Clinton, for that matter -- was pushing last summer. So, how do you all come up with the claim that "promises were broken"? Where did you come up with the idea that single-payer was promised a place at the negotiating table?

I can understand you all aren't happy with reform...but to accuse this administration and Congress of reneging on deals or surprising you or breaking promises or anything of the sort is a gross distortion to say the least. Methinks you heard the words "change" and "hope" and filled them in with your desire. (Which was, after all, the point of that rhetoric.)


[ Parent ]
Jay, I missed the part of the Obama campaign where he pledged loyalty to the lobbiests. (0.00 / 0)
Why would anyone imagine the views of 59% of doctors would  matter when health reform is the topic. What was I thinking?

100 million people minimum (if you believe Rassumson) don't matter. AHIP is far more important, yeah, I see where you are coming from Jay.

After all, Obama doesn't represent me, he represents the insurance industry. They were the ones who knocked on doors gave money, and voted for him.

Why would I or any of those 100 million people ever think we might rate having our experts at the table?

We don't. We are shit.



[ Parent ]
Don't know if you're ... (0.00 / 0)
shit, but you certainly take things too damned personally.

Here's the truth you seemed to have missed during the campaign:  Obama, as President, represents both you and the Insurance industry, all those folk who don't want single payer and all those folk you seem to think he lied to.  We've spent the last 7 months reminding the Republicants that elections have consequences.  Simply put, you're attempting to paint the all-or-nothing frame that seems so popular among the Reps.  It might be time that you remembered that as well, because you don't appear to have clue one where Jay is coming from.


[ Parent ]
I can read where Jay is coming from. Expecting 100 million people (if Rasummson is (0.00 / 0)
correct, i think he's low) to have a seat at the table is ridicules, Jay is right.

Anybody who would expect that isn't paying attention. This is America, and people are shit, corporations get all the seats.

I just wasn't paying attention to what Obama was saying during the campaign, and I should have been.


[ Parent ]
You're full of shit, Wulfgar (0.00 / 1)
If you think the insurance industry put Obama in the White House, you're full of shit.  Period.  WE put him there, and WE expect him to keep his promises to US.  You know, Change and Hope -- not Hope for Change.  Your bullshit sure gets tiring.  

[ Parent ]
You think you BOUGHT a President? (0.00 / 0)
Testy, Georgie, aren't you?

You're right, WE put him there.  Steve didn't.  You didn't.  The insurance companies didn't.  WE did.  The problem is that you guys are so damned busy segregating people into US and THEM that you've flat out forgotten that you didn't do it alone, and the President owes you jack-squat.  That's the reality, Georgie.  One would think a journalist would have figured that out by now.  If you went into the election without that understanding than ... shame on you.  It's not like you haven't been fooled before.

So you go ahead and rage against me.  I ain't the President.  At the end of the day, we'll see which one of us is really full of shit:  the clueless journalist or the realist.

There is one thing you share strongly with Steve. Damn, you 'fierce warriors' tire easy.  If you sad tired old guys can't even keep up with me, how the hell do you carry any pretension that you can fight the real enemies of reform?

Here's a hint for you, Georgie, those folk aren't at this website.  


[ Parent ]
No problem with keeping up with you, Wulfie, old boy (0.00 / 0)
Especially since you're mostly going in reverse.  

[ Parent ]
Faster than you're going forward, apparently ... (0.00 / 0)
Direction, Georgie.  It's all about direction.  'Reversing' in the right direction faster than you're going forward is all the same in the end.  If you read the post, you should get that.  It's funny that you don't.  More tired yet?

And yes, I mean funny, as in LOL.


[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
It IS all about direction and I guess that's where we digress.  We'll see which path eventually takes us where.  On the other hand, with the death of Ted Kennedy, we're back to the handy excuse that the Dems don't have 60 votes in the Senate, so maybe neither path will lead anywhere.

[ Parent ]
A different perspective (0.00 / 0)
A tried to post a similar comment a few hours ago, but it didn't go through.  I had surgery yesterday and I am still swacked by the general anesthetic and pain medication. I went back to sleep. I had surgery 3 months ago as well.  

Perhaps we can push beyond the divisive,vituperative, vitriolic overheated polemics and stand outside the issues for a macro-analysis.

With previous comments I have talked about my opinion that a dual path approach would be helpful.  Examine the wellness/heathcare delivery processes separately from financing mechanisms.  Identify what works and what doesn't on each side. Then, examine the interplay between the two paths and  make smart decisions that prioritize results that make progress towards goals.

I have also talked about Safeway Food's self-insured wellness/healthcare program that seems to achieve dramatic progress towards controlling costs, promoting wellness, providing needed healthcare, and high employee satisfaction.

So...why not shameless borrow from success?????  Here's my idea that I will state in bullet points:

+Have the federal government insure everyone for a policy limit of $2 million.

+Have the FG hire the commercial insurers to provide claims and benefits administration.

+With input from healthcare and finance professionals, develop a treatment protocol, a playbook, that would be used by the insurers to administer all claims.

+Provide financial incentives for the insures as measured by protocol error rate and customer satisfaction.

+Allow insurers the ability to write catastrophic coverage above the $2 million primary layer following the same T's and C's as the primary.

+Let the finance panel figure out how to price the primary layer for co-pays and deductibles.  Govt owns this layer and the results.

Lot's of issues to sort out but that's all I can write for now.  


How are the pain meds, Craig? (0.00 / 0)
Sounds like you've just asked for a single payer system...

[ Parent ]
Not good (0.00 / 0)
Make me nauseated.  I'll attempt just a bit more before going back to sleep.

JC, what I am suggesting is a layered and muti-dimensioned approach as we step back from the shackles of ideology and politics. Having insurers front the paper and claims services keeps them regulated by each state thereby avoiding 10th amendment issues. Having them administer according to a playbook with predetermined fees and incentives takes the risk factors away as a price driver for their services..

See you in 4 hours.


[ Parent ]
Same problem (0.00 / 0)
Craig - hope your back surgery went well.  Good for you for even making the effort to post after general anesthesia -- that's saying something about your strength.

But as for the perspective you offered, I guess I fail to see how keeping the insurance industry in the middle of the game between patients and the health care they need actually solves any problems.  Under your scenario, the government gives money to insurance companies -- not directly to health care providers.  The insurance companies are already costing the nation hundreds of billions annually that could go to taking care of people instead of corporations.  Your ideas for side-boards and, I assume, some new regulatory requirements surely make more sense than the current system, but why wouldn't we want to "shamelessly borrow" the ideas from other countries that eliminate the middle-man and simply take care of their citizens?  As I've posted here before, it's not like the insurance industry is going to disappear, there's plenty of stuff to insure out there.  And if people want private health insurance, well, let 'em have it if they can afford it.  But for those who would like to see a single-payer system without the open-palm of insurance companies taking their rake, why not simply offer them the government health CARE option?


[ Parent ]
George, my reasoning is as follows (0.00 / 0)
Unless the govt contracts for these services it will have to build its own claims management processes, and then operate them.  The insurers already have them built and in place, so no recreating the wheel with the accompanying costs and learning curve.  Just hand them a new playbook as I suggested and measure their performance and reward them accordingly.  Think of it this way, their is a reason the government contracts out all kinds of services and product builds while holding those contractors to account for their actions.  As to other countries see this article about 5 myths:  http://www.stamfordadvocate.co... There are all sorts of hybrid systems out there.

One of the aspects of my suggested structure is to use co-pays and deductibles in lieu of premiums.  I would have a greater use of tax deductible MSA'a as the means for people to save and invest those savings as the mechanism to fund the user participation portion. Allow employers to participate in funding those MSA's. There would have to be means testing for the poor to qualify for subsidy. There would also need to be aggregate caps on the deductibles and co-pays. Heathcare is not free. People need to be reminded of that by participating, but having an avenue that allows them to lessen the financial pain.  

This is how one drug rummy rightie sees it this time.


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Craig - (0.00 / 0)
Once again, thanks for making the effort to further explain your concepts despite the effects of post-operative drugs.  I recently had a friend over from Ireland and we spoke about their health care system at length.  He was totally baffled by how we deal with our citizens versus how they deal with their citizens.  He recently retired from being the captain of the world's largest ferry, operating between Ireland and Europe, so by no means is he a poor man.  What he told me, in simplest terms, is that if they have to go to the doctor or the dentist, they simply go do that and the health care provider submits the bill for payment to the government.  The citizens aren't involved beyond that and paying a minimal health care tax (his estimate was $20/wk).  I have done no further research into the Irish health system, so can't confirm any of his info as absolutely correct, but he sure didn't have any reason to BS me and, as I said, as a captain of massive ferry, this guy was no dummy.

Seems to me the whole procedure you outlined for "submitting claims" and the bureaucracy it would require is already pretty much in place for all the other contracting the government does -- and as you noted, the federal government has been in the contracting for services business for a long time in a variety of applications.  The VA comes to mind here and, while I have never personally used the system, both of my parents did and many of my friends, and they don't seem to view it as unworkable -- just the opposite, really, they seem satisfied with the cost of the drugs they receive (a fraction of retail prices), the services the doctors render, and by and large, the outcomes.  Are there incidents of abuse?  Sure, but any large system/bureaucracy is subject to abuse by those who wish to game the system for their own gain.  Think about the gaming going on in the insurance industry right now, for instance.  If the guest editorial in today's Independent Record is accurate (and it's by a health insurance consultant), "82% of the population have less than $1,000 in annual medical expenses." Now think about the premiums which, latest I saw from the State of Montana for its employees, is about $750/mo. Does it make much sense that if 82% of the population uses less than $1,000 per yr in medical expenses, that those premiums should be so high for so many?  Well, only if you're planning on skimming a rather thick layer of cream off the top of the premiums while fighting tooth and nail to deny as many claims as possible...which is certainly not an unusual experience for many people.

Maybe you're right -- maybe we can keep the insurance industry in the middle.  But when folks like my Irish buddy shake their heads in disbelief at that system, it makes you wonder, as he said, "if the Irish can take care of their people, how come the big, powerful, wealthy United States can't?"  I guess I'll close with, and support, Ted Kennedy's view that health care "should be a right, not a privilege" in this country...but we're sure a long way from there.  

 


[ Parent ]
Incrementalists only see corporate option. (0.00 / 0)
Seems to me Yglesias and Klein and our local incrementalists want only corporate solutions.  Why, for example can't incrementalists at least consider extending Medicare to 60-year-olds immediately, 55-year-olds in two years, and so on  until everyone who wants it has a health care plan they can afford.  Coroporate plans are already too expensive for most small businesses and individuals not covered by plans at work. I haven't met anyone who wants to trade in their Medicare for corporate premiums, and most people I have talked to over 50 are very anxious to enroll in Medicare the minute they qualify. It seems popular, but polls say what?

This is why Baucus and his gang of 6 have not permitted any variant of Medicare into the discussion.  I also think they're more worried about who will make up that campaign cash when corporate profits tighten, and competition transforms state-by-state insurance monopolies into a thing of the past.  Health care and campaign finance reform all rolled into one.  Scary.


true... (4.00 / 1)
...I definitely see folks like Yglesias and Klein offering no challenge to the status quo -- they're addressing the inequities of the existing system without -- as JC so eloquently said, above -- attacking the problem at its root.

But, again, what we were promised during the election was exactly that, a reform of the system. That the public option still exists is a testament to a lot of hard work a lot of people did, not the least of which are the single-payer advocates who brought a lot of pressure down on reluctant Congress critturs...


[ Parent ]
George Re: I agree (0.00 / 0)
Here is a blast from the past:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Perhaps if reform passes it should be named after Nixon???


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