Janitors at The University of Montana want wage increase

If you want more money find a better job (0.00 / 0)

Everyone wants more money.  Hell, the guy with the coin jar that shook my down last night by Stockmans wants more money.  You can "support" wage increases until you are blue in the face and the costs will just be passed down to cash strapped students who are trying to get educated so they dont have to be janitors.  There is no solution to the "problem" here, just a shifting of costs.  This seems to fly in the fact of makiing education more affordable, which seems to be part of the "progressive" buzz word agenda.  But, your parents are probably paying for your education so its no big deal to you.

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by: Atlas1 @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 18:58:11 PM UTC

You're damn right. (4.00 / 1)

This is all about shifting the costs, and it isn't entirely to do with education costs. It's all over the place. People don't make enough money, while some people make too much. Yes TOO much. Let's take the education argument. Maybe if the legislature decided to serve the people of Montana instead of the Californian fat cats that have invaded than perhaps there would be more money to trickle down to our janitors. Under the Republican budget they would give most of the surplus to "home owners" while the Governor wanted to give it to Montana citizens. On the surface it doesn't look like a lot, but Ted Turner is a home owner in Montana. So is Brad Pitt, and Sylvester Stallone. They don't need it, and further more they don't deserve it.

Advising someone to get a better job is just total BS. "The world needs its ditch diggers too", but that doesn't mean we ought to or have the right to treat them like they are less. This world is filled with tons of people that make your life and my life better everyday. And there is no reason why they shouldn't make more. No reason at all.

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by: Mathello @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 19:28:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

realilty (pay)check (4.00 / 1)

Actually, my father would have loved to pay for my degree, but he made crap for money and is dying now because of working too many years, too hard and with too little pay and no health insurance.

Do not mistake this entry as some piece written by an over privileged suburban white kid with a chip on his shoulder. I will be approaching $25,000 in debt when I'm done, and plan on going into a field where I won't be making much more than the poverty line.

Frankly, it doesn't matter if someone is a famous Hollywood celebrity or the man who empties his garbage can. If you work hard forty hours a week you deserve to at least be above the poverty line, especially after fifteen years of employment.

I'm willing to pay a little more tuition to ensure that those who make my time go smoothly at UM can feed their kids. Plain and simple!

Oh, and pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps is a novel idea, why hasn't the union suggested its members begin doing that?

-James Greer

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by: Jamee Greer @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 20:59:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Why (0.00 / 0)

You are making a conscious choice to pursue a low paying job; why should I or anyone else pay more for your choices, or for the choices of janitors? 

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by: Atlas1 @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 22:32:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I don't claim to know your background, Atlas1. (4.00 / 1)

I won't accuse you of being privileged by your race, ethnicity, family status, sexual preference, background, English skills, disability status and/or socioeconomic background.

You are missing my point. Why should someone who works a full time job, forty hours a week, be subjugated to the slavery of poverty? Why should someone who has devoted themselves to the service of a university for over a decade have trouble meeting the poverty line if they have children? And why hasn't anyone ever tried to teach you that not all mankind has the same opportunities; some get their welfare benefits in the form of an inheritance, be it money, status, race or name.

And, on another note, thank God for students who get angry when they see injustice. They right the wrongs caused by the ideology perpetuated by your ilk.

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by: Jamee Greer @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 22:57:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You don't get it (0.00 / 0)

What you libs never understand is that this world will generally pay you what it thinks you're worth.  You think this is a major injustice, but its the way its always been.  If you don't get an education, or if you get an education in something the world doesn't generally place a premium on monetarily, you shouldn't expect to make a lot of money.  And you certainly can't expect to be paid as much as someone who has worked hard or risked so much to make money.

Nobody has a right to make a living or decent wage.  You have to choose the right path to make the money.  Welcome to the real world.

If money isn't your motivation then pursue a career in a field that brings more satisfaction than money.  More power to you. But you can't complain that you spent oodles of money on an education that you can't make any money with.  Dumb choice.

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by: maxobrien @ Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 03:40:45 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

seriously? (0.00 / 0)

What you don't seem to understand is that working two or more jobs just to feed your kids every night is not living, it's slavery; and spending years at a job where you work 40 hours a week and still find yourself falling below the poverty line isn't making a living, it's slavery.

Also, please check what categories you fall into:

white
straight
not disabled
no mental health issues
christian

and please state how you paid for this education you "took a chance" with. did you take out loans? what did you do while you took out those loans? did you work? did you have a mandatory internship for your degree? did you have to raise two or more children while you were in school? did you have to take care of your father who had parkinson's while you were in school? or your aging mother? did you have a spouse? did your spouse ever beat or abuse you in anyway? have you ever had a drinking or gambling problem? when you fell into a bind because of this, or any other addiction problem, did you have a good credit you could use to charge away those debts, or a parent you could turn to for extra money?

please. wake. up.

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by: Jamee Greer @ Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 06:28:57 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes, seriously. (0.00 / 0)

Oh, I have woken up.  Believe me JG, I had to wake-up.  First, I don't think there is a person alive with all the problems you listed above.  If there is, then there are programs available out there for them to get assistance.

I'll tell you when I did feel like a slave working under the poverty line.  It was when I was forced to be part of a union when I was trying to get through college.  I got paid next to nothing and got crappy health-care, and I worked my butt off.  When I asked my boss for a raise he told me he couldn't, union rules.  Now that is slavery.

So I quit my union job and started my own business.  I made a lot more money, bought much better healthcare for my family and worked my way through school in 3 and a half years.  Good thing I did because my first kid came along and was born at 24 weeks. Yep, you heard that right.  She was born at the end of the 2nd trimester. If I still had my union healthcare I would have been paying for it today. Funny thing is that the state started sending me $700 bucks a month. I asked them to stop because I didn't need it. They told me it was mandatory. Yep, mandatory welfare. So I bought a new jetski.

I am white, strait, not disabled, i don't think i have any mental health issues, and I am Christian.  I told you I worked my own business through college, I had 4 kids in college (between under and grad school), I did take out some loans, I did sent $1000/mo. to my out of work father in law who was caring for his terminally ill wife, my parents were fine(old, but no parkinsons), I do have a spouse, she never abused me but she is a stay at home mom which you problably think is abuse on my part, no drinking problem however I do drink way too much diet coke and i eat too many jelly donuts, I made sure i paid all my bills so I have really good credit, im the youngest of 10 kids so my parents never helped me with anything financially.  In fact, I had to work my way through high school to pay for things like clothes, cars, insurance, dates, some rent, everything.  The injustice of it all.

I'm sorry for the long post, but you asked so I thought I'd respond.  The bottom line is that its our struggles and weaknesses that make us great when we overcome them. If you are a janitor at UM raising tons of kids and have all these problems, you probably ought to find a new line of work to support all of your challenges.  If you can't, then make some changes.  We shouldn't subsidize people's problems, it only exaserbates them.  Its better to drop a few of the problems in our own lives and be responsible. JG, you'll get it someday, just give yourself a little experience in life. College has a way of jading your real-world judgement.

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by: maxobrien @ Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 16:05:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Knee Jerk Reactionary (4.00 / 1)

Atlas, I swear to god your picture is in the dictionary next to that phrase.  Your so committed to free market capitalism that you forget completely that LABOR HAS VALUE!  You've already assumed, so deeply to your core, that janitorial work isn't worth a better wage that you focus immediately on what the workers ought to do.

I can tell that the University system as a whole is having a bitch of a time getting people to work ... period.  If the current janitors, with time, retirement and benefits already invested are having a difficult time living, on what do you base your gross assumption that *they* are the problem? Don't you believe in the bargains struck by free-market value?  Hasn't it occurred to your vast free market willing self that it might be worth it to the University to have clean toilets, worth enough that they might pay more?

Atlas, you're the one making the assumptions here.  Please justify them before knee-jerking.

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by: Rob Kailey @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 21:50:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Whatever (0.00 / 0)

I dont really see how this is so reactionary.  Its just my opinion that if you are not happy with your lot in life then strive to achieve better employment, dont just bitch for more money.  I know that labor has value and that value should be accorded relative to the skill involved.  I dont want to further demune janitors because I value what they do, but how much is pushing a mop worth?  Bagging groceries?  Digging ditches?  If you dont like it then get in school.  Pull on the boot-straps. 

Or, just bitch and some kid in Missoula will feel sorry for you. 

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by: Atlas1 @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 22:35:05 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

This is why I still don't think you get it. (0.00 / 0)

I know that labor has value and that value should be accorded relative to the skill involved.

A thousand times *NO*.  Labor's value is relative only to the importance placed on it by the purchaser.  Janitorial services do not have an innate and objectively attached value.  They worth what the employer is willing to pay to have clean toilets.

Are you sure you understand free market economy?

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by: Rob Kailey @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 22:47:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Clean toilets are worth nothing to me. (0.00 / 0)

Honestly, why should I even have to pay these fools to clean the toilets. They should pay me to do it.

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by: Matt Singer @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 23:29:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes (0.00 / 0)

I do understand the free market economy and I have read plenty of Das Kapital, I just (personally) differ on some of the inherent base line value beliefs.  Now, remember the purchaser is the cash strapped student and if you have seen the dorms lately the value of clean toilets may be a little low, so make sure that you understand as well. 

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by: Atlas1 @ Sun Mar 04, 2007 at 18:11:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Which *finally* brings us back to the point of JG's post (0.00 / 0)

Which was his submittal of ASUM support for the wage increase.  If ASUM supports it, then the purchasers have spoken.  Wouldn't you agree?

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by: Rob Kailey @ Sun Mar 04, 2007 at 19:39:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

yeah, but... (0.00 / 0)

Purchasers don't have the right to interfer in the market. We are prices takers not price makers. (Note my sarcasm at the begining).

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by: Mathello @ Sun Mar 04, 2007 at 19:58:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The purchaser is not the student (0.00 / 0)

Students are one of many purchasers. Parents, foundations funding scholarships (and donors to those foundations), season ticket buyers for football games, donors to the university, and Montana taxpayers all pay the university -- mostly for education (some for sporting events, others for some other stuff).

The university here is purchasing the labor. The students aren't.

What's my biggest beef here? I had to hear within the last two years that it was a matter of fairness that university executives get a pay hike. Now we tell others in the system to take a hike. It's awful management. It's awful economics. It's vindictive and stupid.

Frankly, though, Atlas -- your commentary has been declining pretty rapidly into hateful commentary. It's not a welcome tone.

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by: Matt Singer @ Sun Mar 04, 2007 at 20:56:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"If you don't like it, get in school." (0.00 / 0)

That's the type of idiocy that drives me nuts. 

I had a roommate who comes from a great deal of money.  He is 29, and he has spent the last three years developing a business that is just now starting to make money.  It's a good business, and he will probably make a ton of money, which is great for him.  However, he has the same attitude that you do.  He thinks, "Hell, if I could do it, then they could too!  They just choose to be poor."  He doesn't think of the fact that most people don't have parents that can subsidize them for three years while they try to start a business, or four years while they go to school.  He also doesn't think of the fact that much of his business was built through his parents' contacts.  He considers himself to be a self-made man.

The thing that drives me nuts about conservatives is that, when it comes to the law, they have absolutely no underlying legal philosophy, yet when it comes to money, they are ideological purists.  I have very little respect for people who think that their pocketbook is more important then their contract with their government.

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by: Matt M. @ Sun Mar 04, 2007 at 18:55:55 PM UTC

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When I worked for the Democrats... (0.00 / 0)

I was paid WAY less than this guy.  Find a major that pays good wages.  Take out loans.  Work your way up.  Period.

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by: Ember8MT @ Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 19:49:57 PM UTC