Senate Patient Protection and Affordability Act gives hope to struggling Montanans

I just can't get very excited about Romney Care. In fact I'm bummed out about it. (4.00 / 1)

It's just another stop gap band-aide non-solution that doesn't address the structural problems, it just covers them up for a little while. It's, at it's core, a Republican solution. It's a market based solution. It's weak.

When are you going to quit pimping the fake public option?
I mean, I know you know it's a joke. So why keep pretending it's a significant factor? It's a lie. It's been a lie from the start. Why do you feel you have to lie to us about the Public Option?

The "doughnut hole" was created overnight when Baucus crossed the aisle to vote with the Republicans to pass the bush pharma written Medicare D ripoff scam. Now they want to phase it out over 10 years? Such a deal. NOT!!!

Look, I know it's your job to pimp this stuff, but I'm getting tired of being lied to, spun to, and propagandized. After 8 long years, I've had enough propaganda, and would actually appreciate some straight shooting instead of the hard sell.

I'm not stupid and I'm not just going to sit here and shut up while you spin, exaggerate, and lie, yes lie about this bill.

The public option is a joke. Why not just come out and admit it? It would make you overall far more believable.

I think you are doing real long term damage to your credibility. The left is looking like astro-turf. It's not membership driven at all, it's almost totally top down, and it shows.

Just my 2 cents.

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by: Steve W. @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 07:46:27 AM UTC

shove it (1.00 / 1)

 
shove this piece of crap legislation up yours IE all of you Blue Dawg Righties so called all centrist dems of Montana. this is terrible legislation and trying to make it look like it's a step in the right direction is a typical scam of Singer, Forward MT, SEIU, HCAN NEO-LIBERAL DLC Tools.
 Do not buy into the lies that this editorial promulgates.
  Subsidizing the Insurance Cartel is what they want because they are stockholders!!! This is your money in the writers of this editorials pocket.

   This is a shame of a bill.

        KILL the BILL

    and help facilitate the un-election of Max AIG Baucus.  

   Robt Struckman is a Tool of the Insurance Cartel masquerading as an SEIU rep. SEIU or Union Reps are NOT Working class. SEIU is the bane of getting real health insurance reform passed along with the DLC HCANr's.
     

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by: Darwin26 @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 18:22:18 PM UTC

well, I'll be... (0.00 / 0)

...this is pretty funny. I think we've got a new nickname for Bob!

Seriously, you really believe Singer, Struckman, et al are actually working FOR insurance companies? Or did you just spit this comment out in a fit of pique?

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by: Jay Stevens @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 19:10:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well, we know Baucus is working for insurance companies, and lots of his ex staff are (4.00 / 1)

working for them.

So I think there are a number of people who think Singer, Struckman, et al are working for them by proxy.

It's the "When you lie down with dogs" problem.

I don't quite go as far as Darwin does, myself, but I see where he's coming from and i see why he's coming from there.

As I see it, If Struckman's employers told him they were going to organize on single payer, then Struckman would be happily out organizing on that instead of the Obama/Baucus/Romney plan.

I bet Struckman would be personally  happier if that were the case, in fact. I'm guessing here, but that's my guess.

But, it's his job to promote what his employer tells him to promote. That doesn't make Struckman a bad person, but it does  mean the public should be aware of that and realize that an organizer's personal opinions or preferences often have nothing at all to do with what they organize on.

And they are as good at rationalizing as anyone. There are some real actual carrots in this bill to do some rationalizing with, after all.

And it's easy, when in that situation, to down play and discount the bad parts of the bill.

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by: Steve W. @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 20:32:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Really? (0.00 / 0)

Well, we know Baucus is working for insurance companies,

Do we?  How do we know this, Steve?  If the evidence was there, wouldn't he be investigated by the Justice Department?  The simple truth is, you don't know it, you just believe it.  Most everyone else here, including me, kinda believe it too.  But as such, it is an article of faith, not fact.  Stating it as fact is an accusation of malfeasance.

I, for one, do not know that Baucus is a corrupt politician accepting pay from the Insurance industry.  But I do know that the work he is doing benefits them over much for my taste.  That's one of the reasons I didn't vote for him.  But, as a voter and reasonable human being, I would appreciate it if advocates such as yourself not try to foist articles of faith as if they are articles of fact.

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by: Rob Kailey @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 21:01:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Baucus' problem (4.00 / 1)

is that he let himself be the agent of the administration's futile attempt at bipartisanship. He was the fall guy to reveal republican "no"-ism, and to allow the dems to proceed unilaterally. He really was hung out to dry by the admin.

So he exposed himself politically to his constituents here at home by his adamant rejection of the PO in committee, his bending over backwards for his corporate donors, his denial of any hint of caring about the interest of constituents advocating single payer, and his haughty manner in it all.  Not to mention horrible PR work by Ty "Max serves Montanan's best interests" Matsdorf. Every time I heard or read his words, I just wanted to puke.

Now that Reid has taken ownership of the bill and process, Baucus has gone by the wayside. I doubt if he will even play much of a part in conference, but that remains to be seen.

So basically, Baucus, and as Steve. W. says, those who support him directly, still have to answer politically to those of us back home who saw the process for how ugly it was, and still is. Reid getting a bill through the Senate, conference to the president will help many people to let bygones be bygones as far as Baucus is concerned. But for many of us, he has paid too great a price to ever be seen as a respected politician, the health care reform debacle being the final nail in the coffin.

I, like Wulfgar, did not vote for Baucus either. I wonder just how much of Kelleher's 24% vote actually came from disaffected dems and progressives. I'm sure it was more than a few percent.

According the the MSUB poll, Baucus' approval rating tanked 20% over the last two years, from 64% to 44%, undoubtedly due to his handling of health care reform.

So what we are seeing from Struckman, Fleischman, SEIU, et. al is an attempt to shore up Baucus' flagging numbers by rah-rah'ing what they see as the positive aspects of the health care reform efforts. Nothing unusual in that. Fleischmann ran Baucus' reelection campaign, and Struckman and SEIU and Forward Montana were key state-side supporters. To political operatives, this is business as usual.

Now to the corruption charge, while we constituents can draw our conclusions about how much influence corporate donations have on a politician, as Wulfgar says, there is no hard evidence of illegalities. That doesn't mean they don't exist, or won't come out later.

But I think that if Montana voters had an election coming up next year for Baucus running against a average republican challenger, judging by his numbers, he'd have a tough time getting reelected. And his role in Finance would most likely had been starkly different.

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by: JC @ Fri Nov 20, 2009 at 21:41:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

baucus's staff has been a puppy farm for health insurance lobbyists... (0.00 / 0)

how much evidence of corruption do you need ferrcrissakes?

the best thing that could happen in the senate is for the republican led filibuster to prevail....obama can get more votes by blaming the republicans and blue dogs for failing us re: health care reform and then press all the harder in 2012 for real health care reform.....single-payer canadian style real reform.

obviously!  this convoluted piece of crap is hardly a foundation for change. it is a giveaway of our right to decent health care to the insurance industry.

i would prefer for my doctor and myself to have some say in how i am treated re: health care. this hands everything over to well-pointe, aetna and blue cross....

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by: problembear @ Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 01:37:54 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I think that the distinction (0.00 / 0)

here is between evidence that is criminally prosecutable, which has not been presented or publicly displayed by a prosecuting attorney, and his corruption rising to a level whereby he seems to have lost the favor of his constituents, which the MSUB poll definitely points to. Politics, Max-style, seems to have descended to the point of collecting the maximum amount of money with minimum consequences, either politically or legally. I think that those close to Max know that he has taken a huge political impact from his actions on health care. Whether or not there are legal consequences to follow is a story for another day.

Make no mistake, pb, I'm not defending Max here--far from it. And my comment above took no stance on current legislation--you know I'm an ardent single payer advocate, and am dead-set against many provisions in the bill at hand.

I'm just trying to look at this from a little different angle where my analysis isn't clouded by my opinion, which isn't easy in this health reform debate.

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by: JC @ Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 03:16:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

not targeting your thoughts jc... (0.00 / 0)

just ranting in general since you gave me an opening....

i really think this senate vote is gonna fizzle though. i just hope that the whitehouse is smart enough to fire rahm emanuel if this hcr bill goes south as bad as i think it is heading. they really need to get someone next to the president with some damned talent and vision.

we finally got rid of the worst president this nation has ever suffered under for eight years. this change we can believe in was a mandate for reform. no more iraq war. no more afghanistan war. decent affordable and dependable health care. all i see rahm and messina doing is making the president look weak and indecisive. we need to get rid of this batch of wan yuppies.  

we didn't reject mccain and the right wing policies that drove this country into the ditch just so these pathetic staff members could advise the president to hold out a quivering olive branch to republicans at every turn.  

people are losing faith in this administration fast with this rag tag bunch of weak-kneed hand-wringers that surround the president.

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by: problembear @ Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:08:09 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

One more time, (0.00 / 0)

if the Pubbies had half a brain, they'd search like hell for a moderate Pub of some type and run him against Mini.  I, too, voted for Kelleher last time.  What many Dems have forgotten is that SOME of us Dems still stand on principle.  And I will NEVER vote for Mini again based on priniciple alone!  In the heat of battle, he cut and ran.  And not only  that, he deserted, leaving the REST of us like Steve W., Darwin, J.C., myself and many others to carry on the battle.  Mini is NO Braveheart!  And I hope he's washed his arse, 'cause he can now bend over and KISS HIS ARSE GOODBYE!  A good Green candidate would be a good choice too.  This just might be the time to get a Green senator.

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by: Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers! @ Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 01:43:16 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

and as for struckman?........talk about mediocre insipid writing. bleah. (0.00 / 0)

seriously?.....nuff said.  

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by: problembear @ Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:16:52 AM UTC

p-bear, no offense, Pal (0.00 / 0)

But you are likely the last person who should critiquing someone else's "writing".

Struckman laid out the positive case of the benefits of the Senate bill.  He did that very well.  Fact is, I think the negatives outweigh the positives, as do you.  But just because Mark T is leading the "charge of the light brigade" here doesn't mean you need to follow with irrational critique of someone's "writing".  The fact is, the writing of this  post wasn't insipid, you just disagree with it.  Start there.  Just a suggestion ...

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by: Rob Kailey @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 00:07:58 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

no offense detected wulfgar.... (0.00 / 0)

but mark t leads no charges for me. if anything he gets in the way.

struckman left me cold at the missoulian and new west just as he leaves me cold here. his "style" while thorough (if you like twelve links to the inch-frankly i don't have the time)  reeks of self-serving intentional and misleading branding and major media spin. it lacks all the necessary passion necessary to actually convince anyone of anything.

i would prefer an amateur with some courage, raw talent and conviction to the insipid political porridge splattered on my plate in this post.

by the way, i consider my credentials in writing to be more than enough to pass judgment on mr struckman, as i do here with no apology to anyone.

 

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by: problembear @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 03:20:53 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Paid lacky's SEIU, HCAN, Centrist = Mediocrity (0.00 / 0)

 
I'm not sure Forward MT/Singer is deft enuff to get paid for his 'toolmanship' but worthy of a butt kicking for his lack of vision on this issue. And please, Left in the West is CENTRIST.

 Here's the deal: if you're a centrist you are the problem not just part of it. You are the 'mediocrity' that flushes the Repug toilet.

For the guy/girl who doesn't know where the FACT and Real Figures are on the criminal conflict of interest of Max AIG Baucus  --> check this link
http://www.opensecrets.org/ind... there are more but this should be sufficient to enlighten you on where the money comes from that lines the pockets of Max K-Street Baucus.

There was a post talking about the duplicity of Struckman and his tool box of cronies like Joe Splinter and Sarah ? and Molly and all of those luzers... i heard from more than one of them to my face that 'they really are for Single Payer' !!! yes they actually mouthed that and i barrrrffffed because you know these are lying stinking shills for the Insurance Cartel lead around by the $nose.

 Single Payer 1. would have solved the Insurance Crisis (however it needed much atten to perform and that's what i thought the  USA would be doing, is polishing Single Payer)
2. it would have ended the Insurance Cartels hold on the predatory capitalist system. Anyone who didn't see this and anyone who circumvented it is a luzer. There is NOTHING redeeming about the Insurance Cartel and if you weren't for defeating them you were a pawn and puppet of and for them.

 Struckman $$$ and all his minions are like the despised spies, they should be considered diseased with the blight of MEDIOCRITY, lead around by Baucus and Fleishman - an anathema to health care and insurance reform.  

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by: Darwin26 @ Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 18:54:55 PM UTC

Paranoia will destroy ya' (0.00 / 0)

To your view, anybody rational would be a centrist.  So I submit to you, Darwin, that you are your own worst enemy.  Your problem is you.

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by: Rob Kailey @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 00:00:07 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

i am a very big bear and i can take the flak that is sure to come my way... (0.00 / 0)

but count me as someone who is pretty tired of comments peppered with "you" "your" etc. why do commenters feel the need to get personal in discussing differences.

personal attacks are boring to everyone except the two or three combatants and thus tend to drive away commenters who are searching for some meaning. the lack of diversity in commenters here and at 4 & 20 disappoints me. i am getting sick of the same handful of commenters especially when all they do is engage in virtual ego arm-wrestling.

i am guilty of it myself. i believe it drives away many viewers and robs us of the potential of hearing from many people who might have interesting viewpoints on important subjects. in general, i am very happy with the quality of the posters here, but without sensible give and take, how can people possibly value this site anymore? much less participate.

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by: problembear @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 01:23:57 AM UTC

Pbear, I hope YOU (0.00 / 0)

your family, friends, and strangers in need you help everyday have a great Thanksgiving.  Thank you for your work.

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by: Craig Moore @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 01:30:13 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

same to you and yours craig (0.00 / 0)

i enjoy our give and take craig and am mindful that this country is great because of our differences.

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by: problembear @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 01:41:21 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I understand and accept. n/t (0.00 / 0)

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by: Rob Kailey @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 02:04:59 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Agreed. (0.00 / 0)

I even enjoy reading Eric Coobs.  He cuts right to the chase of the rightwing argument without attack or vitriol, and his arguments embody the soul of the rightwing point of view.  I don't have to go searching for it.  I've found he and Craig to be gentlemen in argument.  Occasionally I, too, like to tweak a rightwinger just to get an angry response and size them up. But after I get to know them, that becomes unnecessary.  And as far as Mark T. goes, I used to write much like him and was branded as a kook and banned from nearly every forum I wrote on.  But now, Mark does a much better job than I did, so I no longer have to write as much.  He pretty much represents the way that I and a lot of others feel.  His opinions are very valid and have much merit.  Much like Coobs, Mark cuts right to the chase of true leftwing ideology.  I, too, say lose the personal attacks (EXCEPT of course for the perps in Congress proposing this crap) and get back to pure debate.  Allow your arguments to carry the day, not your vitriol.  BTW, none of US are getting rich from industry donations, so I feel that the perps like baucus are INDEED fair game.  They CAN and SHOULD be blasted.  But don't take it as an insult if I insult your heroes.

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by: Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers! @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 13:47:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Larry, (0.00 / 0)

I extend my best wishes to you, your family, and friends for a wonderful Thanksgiving.  I look forward to having a beer with you. Best.

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by: Craig Moore @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 14:56:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Back atcha. (0.00 / 0)

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by: Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers! @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 15:32:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]