Health reform: Chamber's tactics work against Montana small business

While I agree with you that the interests of big business and small business are often (0.00 / 0)

diametrically opposed, I disagree with you that a job based health care system is good for anyone except perhaps big unions like SEIU who have already invested considerable time and energy into negotiating health care benefits, and big employers who currently get big tax breaks.

Ideally, we would divorce health care from the work place completely and totally.

Don't you agree? Or are you in favor of forever keeping health care chained to the work place?

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by: Steve W. @ Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:19:08 AM CST

??? (0.00 / 0)

I disagree with you that a job based health care system is good for anyone except perhaps big unions like SEIU who have already invested considerable time and energy into negotiating health care benefits, and big employers who currently get big tax breaks.

As written, this comment amounts to 'you say, I say you're wrong, let's look at something off topic instead'.  I, for one, would appreciate it if you could be more specific about why the current proposal is bad for small business without touting your pet desires (changing the subject).

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by: Wulfgar @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 16:48:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Steve possesses more than peripheral knowledge on the subject ... (0.00 / 0)

In addition to "keeping health care chained to the workplace" he might have added "keeping workers chained to their jobs". It's quite germane.

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by: Mark Tokarski @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 09:57:48 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, he seems to, sort of ... (0.00 / 0)

Steve possesses more than peripheral knowledge on the subject

So what?  He has more than peripheral knowledge of what he wants, but apparently not the subject of the post.  I'm sorry that I have to point out once again that you and Steve are arguing about what isn't going to happen.  It is not germane to anything, certainly not the subject of the COC harming small business through their right-wing desires.

Mark, if you're going to answer for the man, you might want to at least address the question asked.  Oh right, you won't.  You're delusional.  And I do notice that Steve still hasn't bothered to respond to the salient point ...

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by: Wulfgar @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 17:38:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

So what else is new? (0.00 / 0)

The Chamber has almost always been on the wrong side of the issues that small business face...for example...minimum wage...most small business recognize that to attract and keep good employees they have to pay more than a minimum wage, yet the Chamber spends their money...and lots of it...every year trying to kill any increase in a minimum wage...that is money that could be better spent lobbying the legislature on issues that would level the playing field for Montana business with multinational chains...

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by: bigsage @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 09:08:02 AM CST

Big Sage just scratched the surface (0.00 / 0)

The Chamber has opposed so much worthwhile legislation, it's hard to keep track.  It's against cap-and-trade (sure, carbon taxation is a more desirable approach but this is better than nothing).  It supports pro-pollution bills (including watering down Missoula's air opacity standards and ignoring cyanide heap-leach mining).  The candidates it has supported in Missoula races are the anti-planning, dumb growth, big box store variety.

Add health care and minimum wage to the list, and one can see that the Chamber speaks for big corporate interests, not small, independent business owners.    

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by: pete talbot @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 11:50:14 AM CST

Wulfgar/Mark T. (0.00 / 0)

I'm so bored of your little pissing match I'm ready to quit reading this blog altogether.  You're both smart guys, so why are you wasting your and our time sniping at each other.

Steve W. has a valid point, vis-a-vis this post: health care shouldn't be tied to employment.

Here are the facts as I see them. The Chamber is almost always wrong when it comes to the interests of Main Street Montana. The current Senate bill is lame, and with input from Lieberman and the Blue Dogs, will probably become lamer. I'm way tired of the Matt Singer, SEIU, Ezra Klein apologists. There's a possibility that a House/Senate reconciliation bill might be marginally better -- but still hardly what one would call real reform -- Congress was bought and sold before real reform got off the ground.    

It's depressing but you two guys aren't helping.  Please direct your ire at the poltroons keeping us from any meaningful progressive change on so many issues.

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by: pete talbot @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 21:55:25 PM CST

Pete, you miss the obvious (0.00 / 0)

Please direct your ire at the poltroons keeping us from any meaningful progressive change on so many issues.

Mark actually believes he is, and that is exactly why he goes after me.  In his head, an IT manager in Montana is the real enemy.  So please don't be chiding me that I respond negatively to Mark's delusions.

And quite frankly, Pete, I don't care if you're "bored" with it.  I started after Mark well after he was already driving people away from this website with constant lame attacks against it's writers.  I've done the same for 4&20 and ECW before.  See, I value the medium.  Disagreement is one thing, trolling is another.  And just to put a finer point on it, if you quit reading here, Mark get's exactly what he wants.  Kindly maintain interest long enough to show me how that's anything but trolling a website.

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by: Wulfgar @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 16:02:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And just for the record (0.00 / 0)

Repeating myself yet again, no, health insurance/coverage/care shouldn't be tied to employment in a better program of reform.  That isn't what we're dealing with here, is it?  

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by: Wulfgar @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 16:06:20 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Point taken ... (0.00 / 0)

I understand if it gets a little tiresome. Nobody likes to hear that they are the problem, that they steal the baton and lead the marching band down the dead alley, as in Animal House. But it seems that Democrats enjoy being Democrats so much that if you don't remind them every now and then, they think they make a difference.

Remember that this is just blogging. We are a small community, and we don't matter. What we do here pretty much stays here.

Blogging is, in my mind, merely a pastime. I have met some sharp people and enjoy trading barbs with them. I have learned a great deal. It is through blogging that I got into Democratic circles and came to realize how vacuous it is.

Mathew Koehler is bringing us some information from a professor at U of M whom I respect very much. That's a worthy activity for a blog, and I like it. That seems useful. But Democratic hacks pumping in smoke about a bad bill they are trying to foist on us ... no so much.

But as Nader reminded me, the Internet is not an organizing tool. It's merely an information source. And bad information needs to be countered by good.

Wulfgar - you reap what you sow. Do not ever, ever criticize others on the blogs. Your presence is felt by all. You've used the f-bomb on all of us, lectured us ad nauseum on that logic pamphlet you read. You get off me, I'll get off your mother.  

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by: Mark Tokarski @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 16:28:34 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I've told you before, Mark (0.00 / 0)

Don't tell me what to do.  I don't take instruction from the delusional.

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by: Wulfgar @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 16:43:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Now go back too your 'clever negotiating' phase (0.00 / 0)

And tell me who had a better grip on reality.  

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by: Mark Tokarski @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 18:43:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I should stay off the sauce when I'm blogging (0.00 / 0)

Although some of my best stuff has been done after a snort or two.  Also, some of my worst stuff.

That being said, I'll bet that Wulfgar and Mark T. are actually closer in political philosophy than their comments would indicate.  It's also not my role to tell them what, when or how to comment.  I'll, of course, continue to visit this site.

And apologies to Matt, my friends at SEIU -- even Ezra Klein -- I just wish y'all shared my passion for universal health care.

Happy Thanksgiving one and all.

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by: pete talbot @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 13:20:44 PM CST