Tax Day!

IT'S ENDLESS POLITICAL HALLOWEEN FOR......... (0.00 / 0)

grownup white old racist dudes who enjoy getting dressed up and scaring the BEEJESUS outta each other with scary stories about the boogey man! (O'Bama, the black boogey man!)  I mean, these folks are SERIOUS wacks!  Look at that moron in the picture.  He's damn PROUD of the sign he came up with!  O'Bama's a Muslim, AND, he wasn't  born here!  Pretttty CLEVER for a racist with an IQ about like the temperature there today!  He makes NO bones about it.  He don't WANT no boogey man runnin' the country.  He wants a REAL Murcan, like Hotflash Barbie!  

It's time to end the charade.  As I stated the very first day these folks appeared, they are simply racists and other fringe groups that have glommed on for the free ride.  I say just give'em enough roap and they'll end up bein' their OWN strange fruit!  Strange old, white, nutty, racist fruit.  They are a sad, pathetic group.  They don't understand that their day is done.  THAT buffalo ain't comin' back!

Did no other teawacko point out to mr. old fat racist dude that some might find his sign offensive and treasonous, and that maybe, just maybe, for the credibility of the movement, put that thing away?  Guess  not.

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by: Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers! @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 18:18:18 PM UTC

Numbers (0.00 / 0)

I don't find it a coincidence that:

-47% of Americans do not pay income taxes
-30% receive a "negative tax" and get more money "back" than they put it
-45% of Americans think their taxes are fair

So, yes, I would hope at least 45% of people find it fair!  Then again, I wonder if those same 45% of people would find it fair if they actually paid income taxes?  

Or find it fair if they figured out that their payroll taxes already place them at a 40% bracket on day one.  Or if they earn $14 after payroll they are paying 50% in taxes (employer pays $20 per hour, government takes $6 in payroll and makes it $14.  That $14 goes to $10 an hour after the employees payroll taxes.  $20 turns to $10 before income tax).

I don't disagree with taxes.  I gladly pay them.  What I do dislike is people don't understand how big of a hit payroll taxes are.  People should see clearly, how much taxes cost them.  From payroll, to food, to gasoline. Can you imagine every receipt saying "Tax Cost: x".  

After payroll taxes, income taxes, and taxes on goods, the government gets 70% of my income.  Who would of thought making a 5 figure salary that I'd only keep 30% of my income after taxes?

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by: Widowmaker @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 21:04:44 PM UTC

~sigh~ (0.00 / 0)

-47% of Americans do not pay income taxes

Who would of thought making a 5 figure salary that I'd only keep 30% of my income after taxes?

Then you're obviously doing something very very wrong!

-30% receive a "negative tax" and get more money "back" than they put it

Like the state of Montana, which receives $1.52 in Federal investment for every $1 of Federal taxes paid.

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by: Rob Kailey @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 21:38:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Touche (0.00 / 0)

I guess I haven't quite figured out how to be rich enough to avoid taxes or poor enough not to pay them.

As I stated at 4&20, I would like to see taxes cut.  But, until they are, I don't have a problem paying 70% of my income to the government.  I'd like to have less taxes and services, but since they exist, I'll pay for them.  

I would like a system that can educate people with essentially a list: This month you earned $3000, the government's share is $2200, your share is $800.  I think public opinion and taxes might be swayed a bit with a true understanding of how much taxes they pay.

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by: Widowmaker @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 22:01:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You've got a false argument going here (0.00 / 0)

-47% of Americans do not pay income taxes

Untrue. Bottom tax rate for those making from 0-8,375 is 10%.

-30% receive a "negative tax" and get more money "back" than they put it

Untrue. There is no such think as a "negative tax."

If you want to argue about earned income credits or making work pay credits, or first time home buyer credits, then make that argument. Intellectual dishonesty will get you nowhere.

-45% of Americans think their taxes are fair

So, yes, I would hope at least 45% of people find it fair!  Then again, I wonder if those same 45% of people would find it fair if they actually paid income taxes?  

And what makes you think it is the same 45%? I'd bet that there are a lot of rich people who pay little to no taxes that find it fair to them. You're pulling facts out of your smelly side with absolutely no context by which to understand them.

Or find it fair if they figured out that their payroll taxes already place them at a 40% bracket on day one.

And just what bracket would that be? Maximum fed income tax bracket is 35% for those making $373, 651+.

Or if they earn $14 after payroll they are paying 50% in taxes (employer pays $20 per hour, government takes $6 in payroll and makes it $14.  That $14 goes to $10 an hour after the employees payroll taxes.  $20 turns to $10 before income tax).

This is totally untrue. And it is dishonest. A 40k/year wage (which is about what a $20/hour worker gets) has a marginal income tax rate of $25%. Or $5/hour before the worker adjusts their income. FICA is 7.65% (Social security and Medicare) which amounts to a little over $1.50/hour.

You're playing fact-free here.

After payroll taxes, income taxes, and taxes on goods, the government gets 70% of my income.  Who would of thought making a 5 figure salary that I'd only keep 30% of my income after taxes?

I call bullshit.  

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by: JC @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 22:11:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You have never taken economics 101 (0.00 / 0)

Ok there JC, I will prove that you really don't know what you are talking about...ever

First for the $14 argument.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/2...

Without payroll the employee would receive all $20, but instead receive $14, and keep $10 after their portion.  You DO realize the difference between payroll and income taxes right?  No...oh, so you responded without any education on the subject

Next up to prove you wrong: 47% of Americans pay no INCOME tax (didn't say payroll, etc).  That is a pure fact, undisputed.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OP...

And for my 70% that one is easy.  I am not getting in specifics about my income but I lose half of it to payroll, another 10% to income tax, and another 10% to etc taxes on gas,food, and other services.  70%.

And that is what is called proving JC wrong in under 5 minutes!  So easy to do a 6th grader can do it (after all this is elementary school economics).

I'm playing with 100%, cold hard undisputed facts.  JC is playing with...his imagination?

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by: Widowmaker @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 22:24:46 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

wrong again (0.00 / 0)

That CNN article explains why a $14/hr worker costs $20/hr. Not why a $20/hr worker only gets $14/hr after payroll taxes are taken out.

And again with the income tax, you are wrong. Everybody who works pays income tax. 10% for those under $8,375. Now if you want to debate deductions and credits, make that argument. Othersise you're just repeating Fox talking points.

"And for my 70% that one is easy.  I am not getting in specifics about my income but I lose half of it to payroll, another 10% to income tax, and another 10% to etc taxes on gas,food, and other services.  70%."

You didn't prove anything. You spouted out some imaginary numbers. And if you live in Montana, you pay no taxes on food. And nobody loses 50% on payroll taxes. Prove otherwise.

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by: JC @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 23:31:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Never thought I'd say this (0.00 / 0)

But, where is Mark T when I need him for an argument?  He really enlightened me on the payroll tax.

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by: Widowmaker @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 22:40:26 PM UTC

i owned a business (0.00 / 0)

paid payroll tax every quarter here in montana for fifteen years that was deducted from my employees paychecks. did not seem onerous in the slightest.
wasn't my money anyway- it was theirs. only thing i contributed was 1/2 their social security 7% as i recall.

where in hell does one lose 50% of a business income on payroll taxes?  

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by: problembear @ Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 01:53:02 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

it's the worker that gets dinged... (0.00 / 0)

b/c payroll taxes are calculated only to -- 90K? -- of income, it hits regular folks the hardest. Someone like Rehberg pays only a tiny fraction of his income to SS & Medicare, etc. (Tho' I think Obama raised the minimum threshold.)

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by: Jay Stevens @ Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 02:04:16 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm with Widomaker here... (0.00 / 0)

Our tax system sucks. The middle class does get dinged disproportionately.

From C&L's 10 inconvenient truths for tax day:

-- 1% of families earned 24% of all income, and 57% of all capital income
-- 400 richest taxpayers saw income double and tax rates halved
-- Corporate taxes have plummeted as share of GDP
-- The US loses $345 billion each year from tax evasion and fraud

Exxon Mobil didn't pay a dime in income taxes in 2009. A 2008 GAO report showed that 2/3 of all corporations didn't pay any taxes.

But don't blame the poor.  

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by: Jay Stevens @ Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 02:02:10 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

of course we get dinged more than the wealthy (0.00 / 0)

we don't have lobbyists.... and thanks to their lobbyists efforts, we don't appear to have any congresspeople or senators working for us either.

that is what i have been saying.

my tangle with widowmaker is over his mathematics - not the overall sentiment.

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by: problembear @ Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 02:53:07 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I work with a guy that is always complaining about (0.00 / 0)

giving his money to "Uncle Sam"...he feels it should stay in his pocket. Never mind that we have some of the lowest Federal Tax rates ever....

So I asked him what he would do with that money if it stayed in his pocket....would he build a school for his kid?  Maybe start an army? Maybe build a street or hire a cop? Perhaps he would set it aside for some sort of health care if he should be injured fighting a war...a VA benefit. Maybe he could hire someone to deliver his mail for him???

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by: bigsage @ Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 03:48:21 AM UTC

An addition to Jay's Exxon/Mobil statement (0.00 / 0)

This from http://www.nationalpriorities....

It's worth noting that in FY09, individual income tax payments contributed 6.6 times more than corporate taxes to federal revenues whereas thirty years ago, individual income taxes were 3.3 times greater than corporate contributions to federal revenues. In other words, in FY09, individuals contributed $915 billion to the $2.7 trillion total federal fund outlays whereas corporations only contributed $138 billion.

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by: pete talbot @ Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 15:23:09 PM UTC

How About These Dudes? (0.00 / 0)

Americas top twenty five hedge fund managers last year earned an average of 3 billion each. They paid %15 income tax.

But the guy playing Paul Revere is worried about Kenya.

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by: troutsky @ Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 16:13:53 PM UTC

Easier Math (0.00 / 0)

Here is some easier math for the mathematical deficient.

GE profits for 2009: $10.8 billion
Clever accounting for US: $-400 million
Therefore US income taxes paid: $0

GE did pay its employees, therefore payroll.  And the employees paid taxes.  But, 10.8 billion and no income taxes...wow.  Two of the five fortune 5 companies didn't pay income tax.  Yet...most of us did.  

If corporations are treated like humans in speech, should they be treated like humans for taxes?  If we pay in lower middle class, should they pay with billions?  I'm leaning towards yes.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/1...

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by: Widowmaker @ Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 17:50:53 PM UTC

What's next? (0.00 / 0)

You going to want to call mergers marriages? Breaking up a bank would be a divorces? A spinoff a child?

This rush to anthropomorphize corporations just leads to many false conclusions and scenarios.

Corporations need to be taxed because their operations confer expenses onto the rest of the populace. Negative externalities. If I don't use GE products, then the free market tells me I don't need to pay for the road damage and repair that is caused by GE moving large equipment around. GE does. Through taxes.

Corporate tax laws must be reformed. Where is the tea bagger party on this issue? I hear crickets. Which tells me who funds their movement (David Koch, et al.).

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by: JC @ Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 18:07:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]