Freedam's just another way of saying there's nothing left to loose

Reading the post helps you understand the title... (0.00 / 0)

; )

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by: Jay Stevens @ Sat Jul 17, 2010 at 03:01:14 AM UTC

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??? (0.00 / 0)

Not sure I follow. You think it's cool for a public candidate -- someone who writes the laws of the state -- to be not only half-illiterate, but also so completely self unaware he doesn't even recognize his own glaring faults?

Yeah, I know it's cool among Reagan Democrats to conflate illiteracy with American genuineness, but from here it looks like the ravings of a confused mind hardly fit for public office. You want this guy to write the laws you have to live under and abide?

As for p-bear's comments, they say more about him than me, IMHO.

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by: Jay Stevens @ Sat Jul 17, 2010 at 17:28:08 PM UTC

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i don't recall commenting on this post, jay. (0.00 / 0)

????????????

i did comment about your ignorance about earth first on another post. and about your arrogance in displaying said ignorance by blaming the tiny ef movement for the right wing Reagan era resurgence.....

an assertion on your part, i might add that would require a substantial reordering of historical fact.

could that be what you are referring to?

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by: problembear @ Sat Jul 17, 2010 at 20:07:31 PM UTC

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you need to chill out, p-bear (0.00 / 0)

I never said Earth First! caused the Reagan revolution -- tho I did say 60s radicalism pushed voters to Nixon, which is pretty clear -- I said that EF! correlated with Reagan and didn't seem to have much effect on the rightward shift. So I don't see the "success" you all ascribe to it, and I do think EF! and others helped crate a divide within communities that hurt everyone's best interests.

But it's obvious you don't really care what I said, it appears I represent a political archetype you dislike. A little reminder about civility: attack the arguments, not the person.

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by: Jay Stevens @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 00:07:48 AM UTC

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huh (0.00 / 0)

It's an odd time for you to start decrying needling folks, jed. What gives?

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by: Jay Stevens @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 00:08:37 AM UTC

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my name is problem (0.00 / 0)

and i don't chill out about anything. much less when you call me out on an unrelated post. if you don't want thrills and chills, don't call me out jay....

"As for p-bear's comments, they say more about him than me"

practice what you preach, jay - or don't. it makes no never mind to me. the fact is, in the other post, you ventured way past your comfort level of information to make assertions that you had no business making about certain movements you know next to nothing about. jc and matt koehler called you out on your assertions as well.

the plain fact is if you want to count on betrayed progressives to help you in the next election it will take more than insipid policy speak to lure them back. activists do not like to be preached to or told to only respond to posts in a "positive manner" when the truth is you are alienating the very people you will wish you had in your corner this november.  

i am perfectly happy to go my own way on this because frankly you guys are too boring. progressives need to find a way to connect with the american people again. and here's a news flash for you and matt....

this site appears to many of us as arrogant, aloof and much too insulated from real life to be very useful toward "turning things around." i see very little visceral connection with real life in your words. all i see here is a lot of political theorizing.

reading yours and matt's stuff is like watching scientists gather around a chalkboard on the titanic to describe the weight, mass and velocity of the disaster so that we understand how horrible it will be. i prefer to roll up my sleeves and at least try to reverse engines or change course....

i don't think it is intentional. i think you and matt are very intelligent people but sometimes when the yellow lights turn to red flashing we need more action and less analysis and turning things around will require much more imagination and creative thinking than your little graphs and analyses can ever summon.

like i said. if you want to see how, watch me.

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by: problembear @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 02:50:07 AM UTC

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like i said... (0.00 / 0)

You're not attacking me, you're attacking whatever strawman you've fashioned from me for whatever reasons you have.

I didn't ask you to vote for anyone or to help out in any election. Over and over again I've written that elected Democrats need to pay attention to their base and pass good, progressive policies to keep the foot soldiers in the game, and that by passing the crap health care bill, say, they'd lose a lot of people, and deservedly so. I have NO idea where you got the opposite message from that.

And again, you're reading way more into my comments about EF than what I actually said.

I don't know about who the "us" is you talk about getting bored with the site -- traffic has actually increased since our new site policy, and held steady ever since I've been writing here, not that I think blogs aren't losing their lustrous new-car sheen -- and I'm curious about this "real life" you know that's any different from mine or anyone else's. And I dare you to think of anyone who takes more action and works harder for progressive issues than Matt.

Basically, you're getting p*ssed off at people who don't resemble Matt and I at all. It's a little weird, actually. Like I said, you're wrestling, but I'm not sure with what.

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by: Jay Stevens @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 03:34:06 AM UTC

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Well the (0.00 / 0)

Ain't you happy none of us asked you too.  Won't stop you from bloviating about it, but as long as you're happy ...

I wouldn't be needling people about "arrogance" if I were you, 'old jed'.

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by: Rob Kailey @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 03:38:44 AM UTC

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I'm still curious about your politics (0.00 / 0)

you've never actually expressed a belief or an idea other than that we're all Reagan Democrats, whatever that means.

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by: Jay Stevens @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 03:42:26 AM UTC

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i am wrestling with a way to re-engage progressive americans who feel betrayed (0.00 / 0)

and with you because you continually choose to alienate many of us old enough to remember how activism worked in pushing for civil rights, women's rights, wilderness and getting us out of vietnam.

you take your tiny slice of life experience with some tiny little movements which did not bear fruit and apply it to any and all activism. this nihilist attitude of yours towards activism in your writing is what i refute.

"It is hardly possible to build anything if frustration, bitterness and a mood of helplessness prevail."
Lech Walesa

i think readers here should take your assertions about activism with a grain of salt because you lack much real experience in it.

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by: problembear @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 04:30:59 AM UTC

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I'm glad that's only your opinion. (0.00 / 0)

i think readers here should take your assertions about activism with a grain of salt because you lack much real experience in it.

Because it's based on nothing more than a fallacy of unestablished authority.

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by: Rob Kailey @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 04:41:19 AM UTC

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the other fallacy (0.00 / 0)

is that i oppose activism. in fact, in the post that angered you, I opposed radicalism and violent methods, not activism. i think rioting and bombing and burning down buildings work counter-productively to causes. i also think traditional civil disobedience doesn't work anymore. and i've participated and witnessed a lot more protests than, apparently, you think i have, dating back to anti-apartheid sit-ins in the mid 80s. just because i don't use my experience as a cudgel doesn't mean i haven't had any. (if anything, i have enough experience to know that it doesn't count for much, when every movement or political problem has its own individual characteristics, and the biggest asset to have -- in politics as well as in life and buying cars -- is flexibility and ingenuity.)

i'm not against activism -- obviously, because I do activist stuff, nowhere near Matt, of course -- i'm against methods that don't really work. just because you did stuff 45 years ago doesn't mean they would work now. and just because a lot of good stuff happened as a result of the political clashes 45 years ago doesn't mean bad stuff didn't -- i see the seeds of our current vituperative partisanship and gross political divides in the 60s as a result of the radicalism and its backlash. and i see you guys fill with anger and want to lash out, when i think (my opinion) today's politics calls for flexibility, patience and media savvy.

one day you say we need action, the next day you say we're water to their rock, yet another day you defend sloganeering and platitudes, the next you say "real" people are tired of us because we don't do enough "action," the next day you say we have to wait for the people to join us before we can take action. i'm guessing you're as frustrated and confused as i am about what to do, what with a rising tide of rightwing-fueled rage threatening to overwhelm the country, corporate domination of our economy and very lives, and milquetoast Democratic politicians caving on the very values that glue progressives -- and the greater body politic, I'd argue -- together.

whatever. i could be wrong about everything. if i am, and you do something sh*t cool that changes the planet, i'll be first in line to shake your hand and eat my foot.

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by: Jay Stevens @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 15:43:33 PM UTC

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Jay, what is worse? (0.00 / 0)

The "the radicalism and its backlash," or the things that provoked said radicalism: a war where millions died or were maimed for life; the relic culture of slavery that precipitated the need for the civil rights movement; rampant pollution and loss of clean air and water, species and wilderness due to the industrial explosion of the post-war era?

That radicalism was precipitated by a very regressive political and corporate environment. But it accomplished a lot. But to look back and intimate that it is responsible for today's right wing extremism is to ignore that those elements were there then, and are still here. That radicalism fostered political change. But political change does not necessarily result in cultural change.

Yes, it is convenient to bash hippies. And as your tweet yesterday shows:

"Does old left activist anger remind anyone else of DC insider resentment of new progressives trying to storm political gates?"

You have outlined the new generational battleground. For us in the 60s and 70's it was "don't trust anyone over 30." Now it seems to be that some young activists want to insinuate that us old leftist activists are trying to guard the gates, "don't trust the hippies!"

You asked for some positive ideas. Some of us have been watching and/or participating in politics and have been involved in activism since the 60's. It's why I adamantly continue to push the idea of sticking to principles as being the best thing that a young activist could do. If non-violent civil disobedience is guided by principled thought, then it could be a valuable tool in future endeavors. It is not an anachronism. It has been time tested throughout the history of civilization. And it once again will be. But only if those youngsters "storm[ing] political gates" adhere to some principled core beliefs.

Crony capitalism and corrupt corporatism will only be defeated when a populist movement arises out of a belief that there are better motivators in life than profit or political power.

And for a final reminder of the power of non violent civil disobedience, you asked for a contemporary instance. Well, here's one:

Where was this year's world cup held? South Africa. And would that had happened if a nation did not dedicate itself to some incredibly principled behavior? Absolutely not. Has racism disappeared in SA? Of course not. Again, cultural change does not immediately follow political change. But there is a lesson there to be learned.

But today's lesson is not about how to score the next political win or manage the news cycle. it's how to defeat crony capitalism before our nation--indeed the world--is permanently enslaved by a power structure inequitably built on wealth.

Us old hippies and our seemingly anachronistic methods are not your enemies. And the sooner you can learn that, then the sooner we can all begin to work together to figure out how to win the big battle.

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by: JC @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 17:36:50 PM UTC

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False Dilemma (0.00 / 0)

And it's one that 'old jed' can't let go of.  Concern for the middle class does not, in any way, preclude concern for the underclass.

So the question remains, as I've asked many times, 'old jed'.  Leaving aside your derision directed personally at those who post and comment here, what are your beliefs?

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by: Rob Kailey @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 19:01:36 PM UTC

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Worse is strife among friends over semantics (0.00 / 0)

What's worse? "The "the radicalism and its backlash," or the things that provoked said radicalism: a war where millions died or were maimed for life..."

False dichotomy. Just because Vietnam was horrific doesn't excuse the Weather Underground, nor would I say that the actions of the Weathermen sped up the end of the war in any way. I think in large part what made the SCLC and King so successful in the civil rights' campaign was its insistence on not letting anger seep into the movement and radicalizing protests.

Yet the effects of lefty radicalism are with us today, still, as the conservative media has created a 60s narrative around it. I'm simply warning against letting anger and rage lead people into radical, violent action.

"Now it seems to be that some young activists want to insinuate that us old leftist activists are trying to guard the gates, 'don't trust the hippies!'"

I'm not insinuating, I'm saying it outright. If I had a nickel for every time I heard an experienced lefty say that we, personally, are responsible for Obama's, or Tester's, or Baucus' policy failures; that we don't have the right to an opinion because we lack "experience"; that we don't know anything because we haven't passed enough legislation; that we don't really have the right to participate in these discussions because don't have the proper approach, or the proper set of principles, etc & co; then I would be a very, very, very rich man.

(And right in your comment: "But only if those youngsters 'storm[ing] political gates' adhere to some principled core beliefs." And yet the discussion has always been about method, never about principle.)

"f non-violent civil disobedience is guided by principled thought, then it could be a valuable tool in future endeavors. It is not an anachronism. It has been time tested throughout the history of civilization. And it once again will be."

Fair enough. I can be persuaded.

"Us old hippies and our seemingly anachronistic methods are not your enemies. And the sooner you can learn that, then the sooner we can all begin to work together to figure out how to win the big battle."

Completely agreed. The reverse is also true.

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by: Jay Stevens @ Mon Jul 19, 2010 at 20:24:13 PM UTC

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i was 12 years old 45 years ago (0.00 / 0)

i believe at the time if i was an activist it was mostly to raise enough for a cherry coke at the DQ after baseball practice.

i was thinking about small local activist stuff like badger-two-medicine which saved a good deal of the front from oil and gas exploration thanks to max baucus and clinton. that worked pretty well. two guys started it- mike bader and bob yetter. that went pretty well i thought. guys like jc did tons of work on that and subsequent wilderness activism. sorry you didn't like earth first but there is a lot that outsiders did not know about what went on there. most of it was very earnest and very good work by people who devoted their lives to the good of the planet and anything living on it.

of course it is understood by all that any activism must always be nonviolent but to really be successful it must reach people in their gut. too much brain work makes bears angry. i like stuff that comes from the gut.
keep up the good work jay. and thanks for the cover, jay.

now while our enemies think we are fighting
i will circle behind their encampment and surprise them.  

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by: problembear @ Tue Jul 20, 2010 at 00:23:48 AM UTC

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likewise, p-bear (0.00 / 0)

i can think of other local activist work that's paid dividends -- the save the Blackfoot campaign, say...

My frustration right now is with DC. How to reach those people, I don't know...

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by: Jay Stevens @ Tue Jul 20, 2010 at 01:06:41 AM UTC

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