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Rob Kailey is a working schmuck with no ties or affiliations to any governmental or political organizations, save those of sympathy.

The real "most annoying fallacy on earth"

by: Jay Stevens

Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:52:30 AM MST


Travis Kavulla - candidate for PSC! - over at ECW has a bee in his bonnet. To wit:

"It's not the religion. It's the people who are fundamentalists. Religion is not violent."

How many times have you heard that or some variation thereof?

These days, the line usually serves as a moral equivocation about Islamic fundamentalists' suicidal and murderous proclivities.

I'm happy to agree that Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, even Buddhism have martial beliefs which can serve to foster violence. But it's foolish to assume that each fundamentalism of each religion is somehow equal. Each faith is backed up by a different set of scripture and associated theological texts. Religions are different: They say different things about the role of women; about when war is just; about what you can eat; about who and how you can marry; and about a lot else besides....

It stands to reason that, if religions have different scripture, different role models, and different theological readings flavored by local histories, their position on the use of violence for proselytism would each be different. (And, again, a caveat: I concede Christianity has a rich history of proselytism by force, although I would argue it is rooted more in Christianity's theological and historical emanations, while the same coercive proselytism is, in the Koran, more embedded within the text of scripture itself.)

For starters, I agree with Kavulla that religions aren't all some amorphous blob that all act in the same way. But, still, the shorter Kavulla is this: Islam is bad, Christianity is teh awesome.

Which is probably neat consolation for the folks who, over the years, have been stoned, flogged, tortured, drowned, burned, strangled, and gassed for not being Christian. Oh, wait! I forgot! That's about "historical and theological emanations," not Christianity itself! In short, Christian violence is result of erroneous and egregious misreading of scripture.

But then, so, too, is Islamic terror:

We need a phrase that is more exact than "Islamic terror". These acts may be committed by people who call themselves Muslims, but they violate essential Islamic principles. The Qur'an prohibits aggressive warfare, permits war only in self-defence and insists that the true Islamic values are peace, reconciliation and forgiveness. It also states firmly that there must be no coercion in religious matters, and for centuries Islam had a much better record of religious tolerance than Christianity.

Like the Bible, the Qur'an has its share of aggressive texts, but like all the great religions, its main thrust is towards kindliness and compassion. Islamic law outlaws war against any country in which Muslims are allowed to practice their religion freely, and forbids the use of fire, the destruction of buildings and the killing of innocent civilians in a military campaign. So although Muslims, like Christians or Jews, have all too often failed to live up to their ideals, it is not because of the religion per se.

Armstrong notes that bin Laden - as is "almost every fundamentalist movement in Sunni Islam" - was inspired "by the writings of the Egyptian ideologue Sayyid Qutb," not mainstream Islamic thought, so "there is good cause for calling the violence...'Qutbian terrorism.'" It's kind of like pointing to the Westboro Baptists, Leviticus 20:13, and d*mning all of Christianity for it. Armstrong also notes that Qutb formed his radical and violent teachings during a 15-year stint in an Egyptian concentration camp, so it's hard to separate his views from the social and political events of the time. That is, the "historical and theological emanations" of the twentieth century.

The irony here is this: it's the secular advances of religious tolerance, democracy, the concept of individual liberty, the tradition of Western law, etc & co, that form the elements of Western civilization that we find agreeable, not Christianity. We know Christianity didn't produce those things: we have ample evidence that Christianity provided the intellectual basis for irrationality, intolerance, and violence. That's not to say that Christianity - combined with social and political "emanations" - didn't abet or even enable the rise of these secular values; I suspect religions' texts defining the structure of religious authority does influence the movement or evolution of ideas. Still, it's a bit disingenuous, even dangerous, to go about proclaiming the natural and universal superiority of your favorite religious text.

Essentially what we have here is Kavulla trying to create universal reasons why his particular and  personal beliefs are true. Personally, I don't get into ideas of "universal law." I believe in principles that communities create (and that I create), but I also recognize that people and principles change, evolve. Isn't that why we should constantly question ourselves? Isn't that why we should always strive to learn, to remain curious and open-minded?

Jay Stevens :: The real "most annoying fallacy on earth"
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No offense, Jay (0.00 / 0)
But I think you missed his point.  Kavulla's screed was nothing other than wingnut boilerplate.  If you don't agree with Travis then you must believe X,Y,Z and you're wrong. He shows how wrong you are by beating the crap out of the Straw Man he just built so that he needn't argue against what you really believe. He's not trying to prove he's right.  As Mark T (and I give him credit for this) pointed out, Travis is using circular reasoning.  He knows he's right because he knows that others are wrong, and he goes about proving they are wrong, using, by my count, at least 7 other fallacies to do it.  Not the least of which was his response to me.  He knows he's right because I'm wrong, so I'm dismissible, hence he's right.

In my universe, the most annoying fallacy on earth is one that is argued for by a Harvard educated blow-hard using even more egregious fallacies to do it.  That would be any Straw Man persons such as Kavulla build.  This isn't about Christians and Muslims.  This is about the American culture war, and Lefties loving them some moral equivalence.  And by Jesus/God when them Quran readers finally fulfill the words of their prophet and kill us all, we're gonna wish we'd listened to Travis.  That's a Straw Man leading to false consequence.

It's wingnut boilerplate.


Religiosity CAUSE of Wars! (0.00 / 0)
It appears that most, if not all, wars are fought over religious ideology.  Ergo (as someone once said), doesn't it follow that if we were to recognize religion for what it is, namely, mythology, that we would have to search far and wide for new reasons to attempt to annihilate one another?

I am thinking that if religion were to go the way of the mighty dinosaurs, then maybe we could have a bloody good battle between Vegans and Carnivores, or maybe between Toyota and Ford vehicle owners--something really important.  What do you think?


I agree completely (0.00 / 0)
I look forward to the day when religious identity is benign and not taken very seriously.  People's religious loyalty should be like that of, say, Grizz fans'. You know, they like the Grizz, but rooting for them is less important than most other things in their lives.

Or maybe religion could retain the level of authority that our daily horoscope enjoys.  


[ Parent ]
Can't agree completely (0.00 / 0)
I don't think the problem is 'religion' per se.  I think the problem lies with our awareness of our own mortality, and our willingness to exploit that.  We're self aware largish mammals and we know we know that death happens to everybody (except of course, Enoch, Mohammad, and those raptured up to Heaven as the pure of spirit.) Everyone wants to think that they are going to die for a reason; honor, zombie Jesus/God, Allah, loyalty, reincarnation in Karmic completeness.

If you in all earnestness wish for an end to religion, you might as well be wishing for an end to mortality.  The result will be the same.  Mortality causes wars; not religion.  (That's why I worship the Norse and believe in Valhalla  ;-)

"You don't win a war by dying for your country.  You win a war by making the other son of a bitch die for his."  - George S. Patton.  I don't think he really understood the truth behind what he was saying about why we fight wars.


[ Parent ]
OK, I'm not following you (0.00 / 0)
You say mortality causes wars.  Isn't it the other way around?

I'm aware of my own mortality. But I'm not trying to exploit this awareness, whatever that means.  I'm OK with my mortality.  I'm definitely in the home stretch, but I'm pretty relaxed about it.

Easy come, easy go.


[ Parent ]
For most, it isn't EC,EG. (0.00 / 0)
The whole point of religion is our awareness of mortality.  Religions tend to exploit that, often in the name of alleviating the fear of death.  Judeo/Christian/Islamic religions often accomplish both goals, depending on the believer and the advocate.

But war relies on the sense of mortality to even be effective.  No crusade or resource conflict would be sustainable at all if a) humans were immortal, and/or b) humans were not actually afraid of death.  The whole point of "shock and awe" wasn't to impress Iraqis with our big military penis.  It was to make them afraid of death.  The current claptrap concerning the 'inevitable Israeli strike against Iran' is the same bunch of hogwash.  It all boils down to the threat of death, just as non-believers will die in a lake of fire yet the faithful will live on with harps among the clouds.

At another website, a certain someone idiotically suggested that the only honorable way to defend against bears was to trust in your hands, luck and maybe a knife.  That would be, in his opinion, brave and noble.  It would also be fricking idiotic.  Stupid in the extreme.  The bear wins, 99.9999 % of the time.  It attempts to define how a death might be 'worthy'.  That is the same attitude that an aggressor takes towards their target.  It is the religious belief that our deaths are somehow way more important to the universe than theirs.  Look at how we laughed and laughed as a nation when the Iraqi Republican Guard retreated before our force in 1991.  What the hell were they supposed to do?  Stand pat in their tanks and die at our request?  To our national zeitgeist, apparently.

If we thought our enemies immortal, we'd never attack them.  We only attack because we know that our enemy is mortal and we have better skills at killing than they do.  And that is the nature of war, religious or otherwise.  Travis tried to 'prove' that being a Christian makes one more worthy of killing than another who is Muslim.  Travis is a dick.  Travis is simply justifying death of ours in the light of the death of others.  But in the end, we all die.  The point of war is to make "them" die first.


[ Parent ]
Wulfgar is TOO abstract in his thinking! (0.00 / 0)
A person's sense of mortality does not lead to a desire for war--at least so far as I can tell.  I have Stage IV metastatic cancer and haven't felt like starting a war yet  (but then that is my example of concrete thinking, isn't it?).  

I think sometimes Wulfgar's responses get so abstract that some of us might not be able to follow his reasoning or logic.  I think Wulfgar could express his thoughts in a more understandable fashion if he just tried a bit.  I'm sure most of the posters on this blog are intelligent.

Christianity is no more valid than Islam or Buddhism, or any other major religion.  Religion IS mythology, nothing more--and nothing less.  Wars are started and sometimes fought for decades or even hundreds of years because one side believes their religion is the "right" religion; the other side is required to fight back in their effort to prove that they have the only "right" or "true" religion.  

Just look at Ireland, and how the Protestants and Catholics (both Christian religions), have fought for centuries.  The Middle East is so wound up in their fundamentalist interpretation of the Quran, that they wish to bring the whole world back into the dark ages. The Islamist fundamentalists aren't worried about their mortality; they are worried about keeping control of their world view: their women, maintaining rights of men, assuring no rights for women, allowing some education for men, assuring no education for women.  Mortality doesn't play into this scenario.

Religion IS responsible for wars, not personal or group "mortality."


[ Parent ]
Maybe you're not thinking about it deeply enough. (0.00 / 0)
A person's sense of mortality does not lead to a desire for war

Nor did I ever claim that it did.  I said nothing about desire.  But one can accept war (killing another)  very easily if it becomes a matter of 'better them than me'.


[ Parent ]
Defending the 'beautiful & peaceful' religion? (0.00 / 0)

Islam instructs it's most fanatical followers to convert all the non-believers or kill them.

I don't hear the Pope telling people to convert people at the point of a knife, do you?

I keep hearing that 99% of muslims are NOT terrorists, but 99% of the terrorists are muslims.

So if Travis believes that Christianity is good, and Islam is bad, I won't disagree with him.


Funny That (0.00 / 0)
I keep hearing that 99% of white men are NOT serial killers, but 99% of serial killers are white men.

Certainly you can found your bigotry on something other than a false cause, can't you Eric?


[ Parent ]
Bigotry? (0.00 / 0)

I have no problem with White Men Rob - (Unless they're serial killers of course) - LOL

[ Parent ]
Clueless (0.00 / 0)
Eric, no one cares what you have a "problem with".  You have the right to be as bigoted as you want.  But your argument as presented, and my mirror argument as presented, are nothing more than the fallacy of False Causation/Correlation.  Being Muslim does not turn that 99% of 1% into terrorists any more than being a white male turns that 99% of 1% of white males into serial killers.  If you're going to be a bigot, Eric, at least don't be stupid about it.

[ Parent ]
Again, Coobs pulls numbers out of his rear end (0.00 / 0)
99% of terrorists are Muslims?  I guess that depends on what you consider a terrorist.  To many Pakistanis, American drones that blow up houses full of women and children, so-called "collateral damage," make us terrorists.

That wonderful Christian Timothy McVey -- does he qualify as a terrorist?

And a huge majority of felons in our prisons, people who made their livings terrorizing others, are self-professed Christians.


[ Parent ]
Read it agian Turner - (0.00 / 0)
I typed it slow since I know you don't read fast -

99% of Muslims are not terrorists - probably more like 99.9% in reality since there's lots of them -


[ Parent ]
I quoted you accurately (0.00 / 0)
You wrote, and I quoted you writing, "99% of the terrorists are muslims."  Of course, you just made this up to support your prejudices, as though you were Glenn Beck.  What is it, exactly, that you want me to read "agian"?

Your posts are such crap, so beneath contempt, that they don't deserve a response.  This is the last one I'll make to any of yours.


[ Parent ]
OK (0.00 / 0)

It's nice to see that you know your limitations Turner.

[ Parent ]
99.9% (0.00 / 0)
of 1.5 billion Muslims in the world not terrorists = 1.5 million Muslim terrorists in the world (according to Coobs).

You really believe that crap?

Oh, and to put your number in perspective, there are about 1.5 million violent offenders in U.S. jails right now (out of around 300 million U.S. population).

Maybe we should take away their citizenship, too? Maybe put them on a slow boat to Australia?

So let's just say that 99.5% of Americans aren't in jail for violent crimes right now. Even given that you believe your numbers, there are more Americans (percent-wise) convicted of violent crimes and jailed than their are terrorists whom are Muslims.

Where does the greater problem exist?


[ Parent ]
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