The opposite of "fact" is not "opinion"

"That's fine" (0.00 / 0)

Sometimes, they intentionally say things that are not true - or that are greatly exaggerated - to make a point.

Devlin gives them way too much credit here. Limbaugh is not a satirist.  The Onion says things that are false to make a point, but its editors use comical conventions that make it clear we are not supposed to take their reporting as factual. Limbaugh says things that are false with no indication of satirical intent.  In fact, I've heard him say many times, "Folks, these are not my opinions, these are facts!" (This was years ago, maybe he doesn't say it anymore.)

Then:

That's all part of their spiel as commentators, and that's fine

No, it's not. It's not fine when you try to pass off falsehoods as truths. It's not fine when your listeners parrot your falsehoods and amplify them.  You see that happening, you make it clear that your followers are wrong, instead of egging them on.

---

by: Ambignostic @ Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 14:30:01 PM UTC

Devlin's piece was a little squishy (0.00 / 0)

Jay's point is worth making, but when I read Devlin's piece I came away from it sensing that she was more correct than not.  She definitely pulled her punches, though.  And the result was intellectual flabbiness.

But I've long since given up on looking for good writing in the mainstream press.  

---

by: Turner @ Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 15:19:10 PM UTC

your point is well taken jay (0.00 / 0)

but compared to other mainstream media, sherry still gets a nod from me for taking rush's lies on from me.
i don't see any other newspapers, television or radio journalists in this state doing anything about the spread of lies by these opportunistic asshats.

i don't think we progressives should single out for punishment the better behavior of one editor who is willing to talk frankly bout the shameful opportunism of so-called entertainers who maliciously lie without conscience to the american public.

rather than punish sherry i choose to reward her because frankly, i would like to see more of this truth-telling behavior from other editors in this state. how else can we fight the ignorance which is spread by rush, beck et al unless we partner with those in journalism who are sincerely interested in getting the truth out?

i think a snark attack is counter productive when someone sticks their neck out and does something to shed light in the darkness.  

---

by: problembear @ Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 19:47:44 PM UTC

So.... (0.00 / 0)

Is this blog full of "facts" or "opinions"?

---

by: Rusty Shackleford @ Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 23:31:41 PM UTC

If you can't tell the difference ... (0.00 / 0)

Then what would be the point of answering you?

---

by: Rob Kailey @ Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 00:56:18 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I know you've got mad "cred" (0.00 / 0)

but the question wasn't directed at you.

---

by: Rusty Shackleford @ Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 04:29:36 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

define "full" (0.00 / 0)

then we'll talk....
i say rush is 73% opinion 27% half-facts
as for this and most blogsites.....my guess- mostly opinion.

depends on who sets the parameters of the blog-o-meter
different strokes and all.  

---

by: problembear @ Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 04:53:24 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

facts and opinions aren't mutually exclusive, Rusty (0.00 / 0)

Both. I realize you probably find factual-based opinions a bit restrictive.  

---

by: Jay Stevens @ Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 17:02:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Fact/Opinion (0.00 / 0)

Jay is correct - the opposite of fact is fiction.

BUT - it does need to be clarified a little, and I'll give you a couple of specific examples;

Joe Biden has been running around telling everybody about the summer of recovery. Everybody knows that the economy is tanking, even The Great Leader, who was on the news this morning saying he now, suddenly has a plan to fix the economy.

Is Biden lying, or is it his opinion?

I say he's lying, but that's just MY opinion.

Some things are more complicated - let's look at Senator Tester -

I was at a debeate in 2006 when he stated that quite frankly, he didn't support earmarks, period.

On the first budget he voted on, he voted for thousands of them.

Did Tester lie? Or just change his mind? Or was he stating an opinion, and not telling voters he'd actually vote against earmarks?

Or look at some of the bloggers here - who claim they're not liberals, but 'progressives'. Lie, or opinion?

---

by: Eric Coobs @ Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 15:58:56 PM UTC

Sadly, we live a world of Gray (0.00 / 0)

And determination between opinion and lie can be somewhat difficult. Let me take your example as a case in point...

Tester did make it clear he would not vote for earmarks. That is a fact that can be easily verified. He has voted for a number of bills that included earmarks - again a fact that is easily verified.

Here is where it becomes gray. Why did he vote for the bills?

Fact - most large bills being considered in Congress include earmarks. Easily verified.

Opinion - to accomplish something in today's congress requires getting enough votes and to do that, you sometimes have to agree to something that you wouldn't normally agree to.

See the difference? It is just my opinion, but I believe that Tester probably voted for the bill because he felt that the overall impact of the bill was more supported by his constituants.

In my opinion, the the promise on earmarks was just that.. a campaign promise that couldn't possibly be kept with the way things are done in Washington DC today. Was he lying? You decide.

---

by: moorcatavalon @ Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 21:05:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I see you miss the point, coobs (0.00 / 0)

Can't say I'm surprised.

Moorcat's right about the facts and opinions. A good writer uses facts to craft an opinion, which is an only assessment or judgement. But an opinion based on made-up fantasy -- like, say, Conrad Burns was as honest as a choir boy, or that the president is a Kenyan Muslim -- is bullsh*t.

---

by: Jay Stevens @ Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 17:06:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

OK Jay -Let's take your example and look at it - (0.00 / 0)

Fact or Opinion -

Is the Great Leader a Kenyan Muslim?

He's surely qualified to be a Kenyan - after all his father is Kenyan.

Is he a muslim?

What are you talking about - a practicing muslim who bows low to mecca everyday, or somebody who's culturally a muslim, but hasn't practiced it for 40 years?

If I make a definitive statement either way about The Great leader, it'd just be my opinion though.

Just like it's your opinion that he's not, and it's bullshit.

---

by: Eric Coobs @ Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 22:05:10 PM UTC

that is not opinion eric (0.00 / 0)

and it isn't just bullshit, it's racist willful stupidity.

---

by: problembear @ Wed Sep 01, 2010 at 23:59:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Facts are facts (0.00 / 0)

You still don't get it. You don't have a grasp for facts. Fact: Obama is not a Muslim.

Your opinion -- that he is -- is based on fantasy. Which -- if we value opinions and arguments on their logical merit -- makes the argument bullsh*t. However, if you base opinions on how well they rile up conservatives' lowest impulses, then it's quite elegant.

---

by: Jay Stevens @ Thu Sep 02, 2010 at 01:16:37 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Nope - (0.00 / 0)

It's you who cannot comprehend anything past a simple concept -

You say it's a FACT that The Great Leader is not a muslim.

Prove it.

There is gobs of info on the web, showing that The Great Leader was a practicing muslim as a child. There is eyewitness testimony, from his own family even. Half of whom are still practicing muslims. All readily available. So if I want to say that The Great Leader is culturally a muslim, it is a fact.

Is The Great Leader a practicing muslim?

I believe he is not, simply because he attended Christian church with Rev. Wright for 20 years, and even though the black liberation theology is anti-American, they also preached Christianity.

But that's just my opinion.

The Great Leader tells us all he's still a Christian, but given his uh ah problems with the truth I can't consider his statements too credible right now.

So Jay, there is a fine line between Opinion & Fact, but the line is there.

Get it yet?

I even typed this slow, as I can see you don't read fast - LOL

---

by: Eric Coobs @ Thu Sep 02, 2010 at 16:11:13 PM UTC

Coobs is a moron (0.00 / 0)

Prove it if you're not.

---

by: JC @ Thu Sep 02, 2010 at 16:43:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

again... (0.00 / 0)

Your opinion is based on fantasy. You're obviously reading and listening to people who are lying to you. That's your problem, not mine.

---

by: Jay Stevens @ Thu Sep 02, 2010 at 17:11:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Poor thinking again from Coobs (0.00 / 0)

You say it's a FACT that The Great Leader is not a muslim.

Prove it.

You can't prove a negative, Eric

So if I want to say that The Great Leader is culturally a muslim, it is a fact ...

that Eric is an idiot. In order to be culturally anything Eric, one must embrace the social norms and customs of that culture.  "Muslim" isn't a culture.  It's a religion.  In the more extreme cases, religion and culture become intertwined.  That isn't America, at least for most of us.  America is where Obama grew up.  Obama is culturally an American, regardless of what religion he practices, which even you admit is Christianity.  

---

by: Rob Kailey @ Thu Sep 02, 2010 at 17:21:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Of course Jed - (0.00 / 0)

Anybody who disagrees with The Great Leader is racist, right?

Can't the Dem playbook-writers come up with anything else?

---

by: Eric Coobs @ Thu Sep 02, 2010 at 20:50:27 PM UTC

??? (0.00 / 0)

Why should they when they have truth on their side?

---

by: Rob Kailey @ Fri Sep 03, 2010 at 02:32:20 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

if jesus christ himself were to run for president in 2012... (0.00 / 0)

the coobsian tea partiers would probably complain that he is too soft on the poor, blame him for health care reform if he healed the sick and most likely vote against him because he is jewish.  

---

by: problembear @ Fri Sep 03, 2010 at 02:50:46 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Too funny - (0.00 / 0)

He might still be a Carpenter too, and generate some anti-union vote - LOL

---

by: Eric Coobs @ Fri Sep 03, 2010 at 03:14:12 AM UTC