Race, "the base", Progressives, Elections and the Professional Left

yet it is you (0.00 / 0)

who falls prey to your own logic dong as you lambast the "professional left" and "many progressives" for the way they think and act.

"At heart it boils down to allowing other people to think for themselves"

It is you, Kailey who can't handle the fact that those whom you disparage don't toe "'the base' of the democratic party" line. It is you who demand adherence to some as yet unspoken holy alliance between them and the democratic party, lest they be the root of all evil in some conspiratorial unholy alliance with those in rightwing loony land. You are so afraid of losing an election or two that you can't stand it when the radical progressive left thinks differently than you.

Let people think for themselves Rob. Even if they criticize you and your politicians from the left.

And no, I haven't read the links yet, but I will. But it will not change the inherent logical flaws and hypocrisy in your statement above.

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by: JC @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 00:17:05 AM UTC

Well (0.00 / 0)

that's all that needs to be said:

And no, I haven't read the links yet,

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by: Rob Kailey @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 01:02:15 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Reading doesn't raise it much above pretentious condescension, I'm afraid... (0.00 / 0)

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by: Horst @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 02:05:42 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I read it (0.00 / 0)

and it changes nothing about what I wrote above.

To which I'd add, I could care less about a twitterspat between a bunch of folks. Twitter is less able to carry on meaningful discourse than a blog, which as we have seen lately can be rather pathetic. Joan Walsh doesn't speak for me, and I don't really care about her and the woman's spat. Nor do I agree with much of what she says or her style.

But so what? The "base" can proceed on its quixotic quest to harangue and blame whomever it is that gets in the way of their thought police. Those who think that it boils down to "allowing other people to think for themselves". And god forbid you criticize a politician they donate to. It's almost like you just slept with their daughter or something.

Anyways, I don't need your fucking permission "allowing" me to think for myself.

Patronizing asshole.

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by: JC @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 02:23:31 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Meaningful Discourse (0.00 / 0)

"Twitter is less able to carry on meaningful discourse than a blog, which as we have seen lately can be rather pathetic."

I agree - twitter is too limiting, and thus lacks finesse and depth.  Also, the tone can be a little...

"Anyways, I don't need your fucking permission "allowing" me to think for myself.

Patronizing asshole."

...right.  Yeah, I see what you're saying about blogs too.  If only there was something we could do about that...

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by: The Polish Wolf @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 03:41:24 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I figure if Rob (0.00 / 0)

can come onto my blog and insult me and call me a liar and accuse me of things I've never said, and call me a bunch of names, the desire to "make nice" on his turf has disappeared. As ye sow, so shall ye reap... If he were man enough to apologize, I might change my mind. But I don't think he's capable.

And I really think it is lame for you and Rob to suggest that my "attitude will help elect far worse politicians in the future". What, you'd have me crawl off into a dark cave somewhere and just shut up? Think and write more like you or he?

The more those guys abuse and insult me, the more I'm going to punch back. Rob may think he's the only one capable of online jujitsu, but i've got some skeletons in my closet just rattling to get out. He ain't seen nothing yet, if he keeps up goading me.  

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by: JC @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 05:07:25 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I don't want you to shut up, JC (0.00 / 0)

I want you to stand behind what you write.  What happened at 4 & 20 was simply because I asked you questions you didn't want to answer.  So you immediately jumped into dismissal mode and started telling me (and others) that if we didn't agree with you then we must believe X, Y or Z.  In short form, JC, you made this all about you, just as Joan Walsh did in the linked article, and as you're doing here.  Pointing that out is, of course, "goading you" in a flame war that quite obviously 'I started'.  No, and no.

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by: Rob Kailey @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 16:04:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Bullshit (0.00 / 0)

You came in and started an ad hominem attack on me personally with all your insults. And as I said, I do not debate people who are engaging in ad hominem.

Spin it however you want. Them's the facts. You're just whining because I wouldn't play the game by your rules. Tough shit.

Here I'll spell it out real clear for you Rob: you come into 4&20 and insult the writers, we're going to call it what it is, ad hominem, and call you out on it. You don't have what it takes to argue the issues as they're presented, so you have to take down the writers.  Pure ad hominem. And you don't get to come into 4&20 like you tried to do and define ad hominem for us. You insult us, it's ad hominem and won't be tolerated.

Period.

And fuck you and your analogy between me and Joan Walsh. There you go again--attacking me for who I am instead of debating the issues as they're before us. All you know is ad hominem--how to attack the person.  

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by: JC @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 16:39:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Bullshit? (0.00 / 0)

This was my comment, JC.

I defy you to find an Ad Homimen in that.

Your response, on the other hand:

I know you have a problem with a politician's constituents holding them accountable to their rhetoric, or exhibiting disappointment over certain actions.

If that's asking too much for you Rob, then maybe you need to take a look at your own democratic underpinnings.

If you're not willing to, then when you turn 65, and are trying to figure out how to make your Medicare voucher work, you only have yourself to blame.

Apparently you don't understand what an Ad Hominem is any more than you understand what a Straw Man is.  Spin it however you want.  Thems the facts, in your own words, JC.

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by: Rob Kailey @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 17:37:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Pissing Matches (0.00 / 0)

"And I really think it is lame for you and Rob to suggest that my "attitude will help elect far worse politicians in the future"."

Sorry, not your attitude.  Your actions, or inaction.  If come 2012, you don't vote for Tester, and Rehberg wins, you will have been a small part of getting a far worse politician than Jon elected.  There no arguing against that basic fact.  Now, you may believe that it's worth it in the longer run, and that somehow it will push Democrats to be more bold and that will help the country in the future.  That does not change the facts about 2012.  

And I'm aware that JC does not have the monopoly on bad language or ad hominem attacks, but whoever uses them is not contributing to the discussion.  Blogs are for discussing - they can be uncomfortable because they can be challenging.  But when the goal is to make the other person angry, it may make you look better, but it doesn't advance discussion (you here not meaning specifically JC, but anyone who tries to win a debate by derailing it and making the other people look foolish.  Ingy = the best at this).

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by: The Polish Wolf @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 at 04:16:50 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

All Rob does (0.00 / 0)

is point out that your attitude will help elect far worse politicians in the future.  I think deep down you know that, otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time making excuses for the fact.  

One thing I would have liked the author to go into is this - while some are saying we should let the government shut down rather than cut the budget further, who suffers most from the budget shutdown - the middle class white people, or the rest of Obama's voters?  The link focuses on African Americans, but I imagine Indians (especially those residing on Reservations) and immigrants or those close to them would also suffer quite a bit more than your average middle class white voter.  

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by: The Polish Wolf @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 03:18:41 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

It AIN'T just Indians and blacks! (0.00 / 0)

Ask ANYone who works with the elderly or sick, infirm, handicapped, mentally ill, etc.  This budget will MURDER these folks, literally!  When the nursing home kicks out grandma and grandpa, are YOU gonna take them in?  And don't think it won't happen.  Nursing homes are ALL run by notoriously corporate predatory bastards whose profit margin IS the only concern.  They have ZERO compassion for the people in their care, and ALL the compassion in the world for their profit margin.  If you've never been involved in health care, it's pretty hard to understand the corporate depravity of these folks.

So, I view our current situation as DESPERATE for a lot of desperate folks.  This budget IS a killer, LITERALLY, and that's what people need to understand.  Real people are gonna get hurt.  Real people are gonna suffer needlessly so that the millionaires can become billionaires.  And real people are gonna die. It's slash and tax, and the things beind slashed are the things that make the difference between life and death for a lot of folks.  Hell, we're not talking about quality of life here.  We're talking about LIFE AND DEATH!

Hence, I think based upon what's at stake here, many people in the know view compromise with these dirty bastard/nazi teabaggers as unacceptable.  We ALL come at this problem from different backgrounds an experiences.  But I think that we all want the same results.  But what I'M saying is that this budget is a real game changer.  And now is the time to fight like hell from whatEVER perspeictive you view it.

I hate to see lefties tear into one another.  I understand it, but I still hate to see it.  As I mentioned, our backgrounds are all quite different, but I think that should make us stronger rather than causing us to engage in internecine warfare.  Because let's face it.  This IS class warfare now.  No doubt about it.

I must say that I have the highest respect for all the folks that write here.  You dudes are a whole lot smarter than I'll ever be.  And I read here to learn from your expertise.  Please, try to keep the infighting to a minimum.  Take a few shots at each other and then move on to the bad guys.  Do it for the folks who are gonna die as a result of this budget.

(just my two cents)

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by: Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers! @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 13:27:57 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Since 1989 a large minority of Democrats have come to think it is all about the middle class; (0.00 / 0)

so they kowtow to the oligarchs worse than the worst Republicans.  
I hope they do, quite soon, declare that henceforth they will abandon the Democratic party and adopt the name Liberals.
I am far closer to the old Wobblies than I have been to the liberal wing of Democrats since the troika of Tsongas, Lieberman, and Clinton proclaimed our new philosophies..

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by: Horst @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 14:04:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well, (0.00 / 0)

me too actually.  But let's face it. Soon, very soon, there WILL be no middle class to kowtow to.  Then, maybe others will climb on board.  Hell, these oligarchs are attemtpting to take us ALL back to slavery.  Whites, blacks, Indians.  It just don't matter to them.  I guess in that sense they're not really racist, just nazis.

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by: Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers! @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 15:13:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Attitude Problems (0.00 / 0)

See, when you make this about "attitude," you sound like a patronizing teacher.  When you accuse people of helping Republicans destroy the country, then you make the debate, well... not really a debate at all.  It's a pissing match.  

I'll be the first to tell you that accusing people of such things is the worst trait of hardcore progressives.  But you guys in the center-left have basically become Joan Walsh.  You're acting like a bunch of patronizing pricks.  It's pretty annoying.

This has become a debate over vision, and the Center-Left and the Left can only seem to argue about which side is helping the Republicans more.  Of course this has become a personal pissing match.  And it'll keep happening until people decide to stop being such assholes.  But I don't see that happening any time soon.

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by: SteveT. @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 17:59:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I started reading (0.00 / 0)

It's a long, rambling piece, but I think it explains at least part of the civil war going on among the Dems -

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by: Eric Coobs @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 03:08:50 AM UTC

it's not a civil war eric (0.00 / 0)

more like a family spat. we have lots of them. it's what happens in an atmosphere which encourages free thinking. no goose-stepping unified thought is allowed here.

we don't take our orders from conservative think tanks. jc is a free thinker. so is wulfgar. this scares people not used to critical thinking but more suited to pre-packaged thought by the far right.

i think it is healthy once in a while. (not all the time)  

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by: problembear @ Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 17:31:23 PM UTC

[ Parent ]