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Barack Obama
"Lincoln Sells Out Slaves"
by: Rob Kailey - Sep 13
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If You Haven't Seen This
by: Rob Kailey - Apr 28
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Impeach the President?
by: Rob Kailey - Mar 16
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It's the system, stupid!
by: Jay Stevens - Oct 25
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Rob Kailey is a working schmuck with no ties or affiliations to any governmental or political organizations, save those of sympathy.

Reap What's Been Sown

by: Rob Kailey

Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 16:14:13 PM MST


I stand corrected concerning some of the things I've said about Twitter.  I thought there was little chance to lay out an idea adequately, but apparently one can with Chirpstory, and @Dirk2112 certainly did.

Difference between Liberalism and Progressivism.

Hat tip to Angry Black Lady.

No doubts, many discussions could be had over the distinctions and verbal classifications that Dirk2112 draws in his thesis, which must have been a real pain to tweet.  But the takeaway is pretty obvious.  Ofttimes the biggest impediment to change and/or progress resides with the left, not the right.  The deepest divisions stand among those who think themselves like-minded.  Some would have it that I am finely agreeing that 'Democrats are really the problem'.  No, that's a failure to actually define what the problem is, and working to solve it.

This is important to realize with all the caterwauling currently being done over wolf reintroduction.  It's not just online.  It is truly a region wide issue, important to many people.  It is damned important to me, and has been since well before wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone.  They were already moving back of their own accord, and had no action been taken to reintroduce them, we'd still be facing these issues.

Matthew Koehler helpfully points out that Idaho Governor Otter signed a bill allowing him to declare a "wolf disaster emergency".  Rather unhelpfully, however, Koehler links to a sensationalist, and truly false, HuffPo piece attributed to Rueters that states Otter has declared such an emergency.  That's not "pants on fire" false, but it certainly isn't the truth.  Otter has done no such thing.

I'll freely admit that I personally enjoy finding such holes in the narrative coming from the liberal environmentalist groups, given the number of times I've been told that I don't really understand these issues.  Yes, I do, as do many on the left when they're not being lied to or talked down to.  All many of us have wanted was rational local control of a predator species in a prey rich environment.  That is a progressive goal, downright democratic even.  It is the recovery of a species such that it no longer needs the blanket of being "endangered". It should be obvious at this point that the goal of the liberal environmentalist is something different.  That is actually defining the problem, and it would appear to be among the left, not the right.

Seeking a solution to the problem, as seen by a progressive, continually stands against the disingenuous presentation of goals by the liberal.  The most pernicious is the "Science" canard.  Read the comments in the link from Suzanne Stone, and you'll see what I'm discussing writ large.

Stone said Otter's decision is "based on unjustified hysteria rather than sound science. We need our leaders to focus on resolving conflicts, not perpetuating them."

Notice please that Stone's latter sentence has nothing to do with science, and her defense of science is based on an Ad Hominem lie.  This is strictly my opinion, though probably shared by others, but the Ad Hominem in defense of meaninglessness is habitual to the environmentalist liberal.  It doesn't respond to the demand for Science in any meaningful way. Here's what does.  Wolf numbers have increased far beyond expectation in the region.  Wolves are spreading to other states and will well establish themselves throughout the Northwest without a whole lotta help from humans.  That is, they will do so if we don't hurt them by 'helping them'.  Stone herself admits that Idaho's wolf population is stabilizing.  That would be the 'science' right there.

Quite effectively, Stone's argument is this: Even giving the power of control to those we have chosen to have that power can (will) upset that balance of science. That's not science.  It's speculation.  More insidiously, it's finger pointing.  If something bad happens then it is someone else to blame.  Koehler's original comment pointing to this horror in Idaho was precisely an attempt at that very thing, finger pointing.  This all is happening as consequence of Jon Tester's rider to the budget continuation bill.  But that is the problem with the chain of cause and effect.  One can actually choose to look a little further back then another would wish, and that's why obfuscation and fallacy are so very important to the 'liberal' environmentalist.  They don't want the light shown on themselves as being part of the problem.  But they actually are.

Two plus years ago, Secretary Salazar of the DOI actually paid attention to the science, and asked for wolf control plans from the three states wolves were recovered in.  Wyoming's plan was less than stellar.  So, wolves were delisted in Montana and Idaho given the caveat that those states would follow the plans submitted.  14 environmental groups sued because those plans involved wolf hunts, the killing of wolves.  They got what they wanted which was an injunction against wolf hunts based on an interpretation of the Endangered Species Act.  I've written that so many times my fingers are sore.  But they really don't want anyone else to question whether that's best for science or the species or progress or change.  Simply put, and obviously exposed, it's not good for any of the above.  They got what they wanted and couldn't stop what they'd unleashed.  As Dirk2112 pointed out so clearly, that was very liberal of them, but not very progressive.

I pointed out earlier that the goals of the liberal environmentalists and progressives aren't the same, and that's the actual opposition at play here.  The goals of the liberal environmentalists have been defeated.  They didn't want rational or scientific management of wolves.  They wanted no management at all.  No hunts, no controls, and no concern whatsoever for those whose lives were actually impacted by a predator in the region.  They sued to get no management, Molloy agreed that there should be no management until Congress would act, and Congress acted.  The protections for wolves would have been vastly better with the original deal between the states and Salazar before the lawsuits.  The protections for wolves would have been vastly better had the deal struck between the DOI and the 10 environmental groups been accepted.  As a particular Drama Queen pointed out, the remaining 4 groups didn't have to sign on because they had won, and screw you all.  Uhh, they've lost now, and so have the rest of us.  Now comes the finger pointing.  It is Otter's fault, but really it's Jon Tester's, aned most certainly mine.  No, It's the fault of liberal environmentalists for not paying attention to science, or their fellow humans in a democratic republic, or the needs of a stable wolf population or anything but really their own need to fight for a principle which really isn't principled at all.  The Bozeman Chronicle had an editorial last Friday which wrote basically the same thing I have here, and I will post it should it ever be displayed online.  The punchline was this:  Be careful what you wish for.

I have written papers and screeds and editorials about the difference between conservationists and the preservationists.  I will not play that argument out here, at least not yet.  But the reader would be well advised that on many issues the liberal environmentalists/professional left are more than happy to lie to you, attack you and shoot you in the foot to get what they want which will hurt what you want.  I have followed wolf issues since the mid 1980s when they were reintroducing themselves into Montana. I have studied it very well.  The results we see here today are not as tragical as portrayed, but they certainly don't serve anyone very well.  If you wish to play the blame game, then you'd be well advised to examine who really is being paid to point fingers, and why they're being paid to do it.  Simple truth, it ain't for your benefit.

Rob Kailey :: Reap What's Been Sown
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Pretty interesting and confusing... (0.00 / 0)
piece of writing here Rob. I especially like how you somehow manage to (un)neatly tie this back to me. I suppose this is to be expected. After all, this week you removed me from front page posting status here at LiTW and you have managed to send out some fairly bizarre and borderline abusive emails about me, both to myself and others.

But Rob, the truth is, I don't work for one of the wolf plaintiff groups. I had nothing at all to do with the lawsuit. ZERO. Based on these very clear facts, you'll have to excuse me if I fail to see how the result of the wolf lawsuit and Senator Tester's rider was somehow my fault and I should just "own up" to it, as you stated over at 4and20.

Truth is, I have stated a number of times that I would support some type of fair chase hunting of wolves, especially if it was taking place more around the wildland-urban interface and not deep in the backcountry. I obviously can't speak for the 14 plaintiff groups, but I suspect they have a similar view of wolf hunts.  Rob, you want to give an impression that because of the lawsuit there was no management of wolves or nobody in enviro circles supports any management, yet each of the past two years Montana FWP killed approximately 140 wolves in MT each year. You also failed to acknowledge that one of the main reasons for the lawsuit was because the USFWS' delisting plan simply separated wolves by state boundaries, when they were listed as a northern Rockies population. That isn't how the ESA works.

You also seem to make a pretty big deal in this post, and also in those bizarre emails you've been sending out about me, about people "getting paid" to work for non-profit conservation groups in order to advocate on behalf of public lands or wildlife protection.  Yep, some people make some money to work for non-profit groups...Wow, what a newsflash!  OK, so if that's going to be the real issue here Rob, and if you're going to infer in this post (and in those bizarre emails) that all Koehler is about is "getting paid." And Koehler has no real passion for environmental protection (or as you so eloquently put it in a email to me, "You are a sociopathic asshole who cares not one whit about what you claim you care about.").

Well, than I guess I should disclose that my 2010 W2 shows I "got paid"  $11,876 by the WildWest Institute last year, and $19,200 the year before. You're right Rob, I'm just making a killing being a professional finger pointer.

Anyway, I'm also sort of at a loss as to how my posting a link to the HuffPost/Rueters story over here (http://www.leftinthewest.com/showComment.do?commentId=24624) results in this statement from you:

"Rather unhelpfully, however, Koehler links to a sensationalist, and truly false, HuffPo piece attributed to Rueters that states Otter has declared such an emergency.  That's not "pants on fire" false, but it certainly isn't the truth.  Otter has done no such thing."

I guess I understand this was part of your effort to try and claim people like me just go around telling lies (I'd love to see some documented examples of this Rob), but if that HuffPost/Rueters article "certainly isn't the truth" and if "Otter has done no such thing," then why are media outlets in Idaho running the same types of articles, all of which claim quite clearly that Idaho's governor has signed legislation declaring a statewide disaster emergency over wolves?  If the article I posted was false or contained bad information, or if Gov Otter hasn't done this, I'm happy for someone to point out a correction...I just don't see that as the case here. Thanks so much.  


Koehler (0.00 / 0)
I thought you were going away?  God knows I've done as much as I can to get you to leave.

This post wasn't about you, or JC of the perpetual victim complex.  It is about the conflict that has arisen between elements of the left, writ large in the conflict over wolves, and the unintended consequences that often has for the progressive community.  Personally, I don't know what you're all about, and I don't much care, anymore.  What I write is never all about you.

Now, one of your lies I can verify very quickly.  You said you were leaving, so go.  


[ Parent ]
Kailey (0.00 / 0)
When did I say I was leaving? Fact is, you removed me from front page status here at LiTW.  I don't beleive I've ever said I was leaving. I know others have, but not me. So, seems to me you're the one lying Rob. Care to "verify" any other of my supposed "lies?" Thanks.

[ Parent ]
Koehler (0.00 / 0)
I'm done arguing with you.  You and JC derail any rational attempt at discussion into a war of personality where your virtues are unassailable.  Just like here.  In case you didn't notice, which you didn't, even if Otter had declared a state of emergency it would have strengthened my point.

Now, If you have anything to write about the post that isn't all about you, please feel free.


[ Parent ]
Weird, Kailey... (0.00 / 0)
...just weird.

So are you saying that despite numerous media articles that claim quite clearly that Idaho's Governor Otter has signed legislation declaring a statewide disaster emergency over wolves...that he really didn't do this?  


[ Parent ]
Koehler, he said himself at the signing (0.00 / 0)
that legislation can't declare such an emergency, and that the bill is open to Constitutional challenge as characterized.  That's why several articles and Otter himself characterize the bill as granting him the powers to declare an emergency, and take action on it.

As I indicated, even if you're correct it only strengthens my point that the liberal environmentalists overplayed themselves and are looking for anyone else to blame.  Progressives and wolves will now suffer the consequence born from the arrogance of a few.

Since you want this to be about you, then let's take a look at your efforts to play the blame game.  You've written here and elsewhere that us good progressives would be screaming our heads off if that rider had come from Rehberg instead of Tester.  That's not, strictly speaking, a lie because it comes from your own fantasy of an alternate reality.  But it is obfuscation.  It's also misdirected blame.  You have stated, without actually stating, that those you throw that twaddle at are more concerned about party politics than about the issues.  Not only is that a pig-headed attempt to blame us for the wolf delisting and the death of the ESA, but it assumes there weren't any alternatives.  As I point out in the post, yeah, there really were.  Those alternatives were not taken away by Jon Tester or Pogie or me.  They were taken away by those organizations and people more enamored of their own stature in defense of wolves then they were in actually defending wolves, or the ESA.  And now, as your good buddy in Arizona tamely points out, wolves will 'disappear in the northern Rockies'.  To which my only response, as an ardent supporter of wolves, is "Thanks a lot, folks.  Job well done."  Oh, and Happy Earth Day.

The obfuscations and finger pointing have never worked with the right, and on this issue they are failing with the left as well.  The role of liberal environmentalists is becoming very clear.  As for me, I've been fighting against those who wish to force the government to save us from ourselves for a decade now.  The consequences of that are always bad.  Mostly it's been from the right.  What could have possibly made you think I wouldn't fight such zealotry on the left as well?  


[ Parent ]
The real issue (0.00 / 0)
Rob - Wailing on Koehler for a lawsuit he didn't even participate in seems to be your focus right now, but wolves aren't the real issue behind the uproar over Tester's actions to Congressionally delist an endangered species.  The furor is over the precedent it set for anyone in Congress to remove pesky endangered species from the list -- or in today's news, stop them from being listed in the first place via Congressional fiat.  

This is real, this is happening, and it's only one week to the day since Tester's rider passed.

What a shame a Montanan set this precedent.

ENDANGERED SPECIES: Lawmakers propose pre-emption of lizard, chicken listings (04/21/2011)
Phil Taylor, E&E reporter

New Mexico and Texas lawmakers are proposing legislation that would prevent the Fish and Wildlife Service from designating Endangered Species Act protections for lizards and chickens that roam the Southwest.

In a letter this month to the House appropriators for the Interior Department, the Republican lawmakers propose a "time out" on FWS's "precipitous march" toward listing the dunes sagebrush lizard and the lesser prairie chicken, moves they say would imperil oil and gas development and other economic opportunities.

The proposal also comes on the heels of Congress' partial delisting of the gray wolf in the northern Rockies, a move that has no precedent and that critics say could open the door to more congressional meddling in wildlife protections.

The proposed amendment by Reps. Steve Pearce of New Mexico and Michael Conaway, Randy Neugebauer and Francisco Canseco of Texas would strip funding to list the species as either endangered or threatened.

The move comes months after FWS proposed an endangered listing for the lizard, which it said faces "immediate and significant threats" from oil and gas activities and herbicide treatments.

The agency earlier this month reopened the comment period for its proposal and is holding two public hearings next week in New Mexico and Texas.

The lawmakers said they believe Interior intends to also move forward with activities that would result in a proposed listing of the lesser prairie chicken, a grayish-brown grouse found in Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Texas, according to FWS.

"What FWS is going to find is that citizens in the affected regions of New Mexico and Texas are extremely concerned with the impact these listings would have on a very broad range of economic activity in the area which is highly dependent on being able to use the land that may be declared protected habitat," the lawmakers wrote.

Pearce, who owned an oil field service company, will attend a rally in Roswell, N.M., next week to oppose the lizard listing. The rally will immediately precede the FWS public meeting.

"Most of the oil and gas jobs in southeast New Mexico are at risk," Pearce said in a statement.

But Noah Greenwald, endangered species director with the Center for Biological Diversity, said the fears are overblown and that an endangered listing for the lizard would protect it from extinction by way of habitat destruction.

"This is something we feel is completely unwarranted," Greenwald said of the lawmakers' proposal. "Both of these species have been recognized by Fish and Wildlife Service as warranted for protections under the Endangered Species Act and have been candidates for over a decade, and so what they need is protection."

The bipartisan rider by Montana Sen. Jon Tester (D) and Idaho Rep. Mike Simpson (R) to delist the gray wolf in Congress' fiscal 2011 continuing resolution may have bolstered proposals such as Pearce's, he warned.

"I do think this highlights why it was such a dangerous precedent for Congress to step in and delist wolves in the northern Rockies," he said. "It sort of opens the door and sends a message to others that if they find protections of species from extinction to be unpalatable, that maybe they can push something through Congress."


So (0.00 / 0)
We can blame that on the liberal environmentalists who wouldn't accept a rational solution that defended the ESA as well.

You seem to have missed the point, George.  By not accepting the stated 'principles' in favor of 'winning', the groups who fostered the lawsuit against wolf hunts have called these very actions into play.  We will now reap what they have sown.  Attack Tester all you like.  That's really beside the point.  If Tester loses to Stan Jones, there will be no change to the precedent.  If Simpson had submitted the rider all on his own, there would be not one thing different, save Montana might have saved face a bit in the face of a legislature which advocates drunk driving ...  What you call the "real issue" I call a direct result of failure to actually understand or care about an issue. And that wasn't a failing of Tester.  It happened well before that.  I agree with you that the ESA has been gutted.  That was called for by federal judge, Molloy, responding to a lawsuit from those who thought to game the system.  Funny that, the system bites back.

Despite your claim, I don't give a crap about Koehler, save that he engages in finger pointing that misdirects from the guilty.  I am glad that he got you to comment here, and I'd love to see that email, but you are flat out wrong.  I should probably add that you are wrong about several things.  The "uproar" over Tester's actions is an illusion that you are promoting.  At current point, the Bozeman Chronicle poll (polls which are weirdly accurate) has wolf delisting being favored by more than 2/3 of respondents.  Looking for the 'uproar' in the media produces nothing.  There is no uproar, save on a blog where one guy had the temerity to say "You guys were wrong!"

Jon Tester didn't kill the ESA.  The people who sued and said 'our way or nothing' killed the ESA.  That was the "real issue" of the post, regardless of what you claim it was.


[ Parent ]
Did you read the settlement, Rob? (0.00 / 0)
Just have to ask, since you seem so sure that everything would have been great if ONLY the settlement had been adopted.  Well, IF you read it, you would certainly understand that it was shot through with "mays" instead of "shalls" and that it relied heavily on funding for continued "monitoring" of the wolf population.  Funding which, as we have already seen in recent weeks, is far from certain in this Congress with this economy and deficit.  Where, once again, the hand politic can shuffle the deck.

You miss the bigger issue, Rob...and always turn it back into some kind of personal attack on commenters or a blanket statement that someone is "attacking Senator Tester."  How's about this?  We all have to live with the consequences of what we do or don't do.  Tester decided to run a budget rider to delist wolves -- that was his decision for whatever reason he may have had.  I and many others (New York Times, for instance) saw his actions as setting a terrible precedent that will weaken or destroy the Endangered Species Act.  After all, Tester's rider was the FIRST in 37 years of the Act's existence to delist a species Congressionally.

Now that the precedent has been set, I only offered the E&E article to illustrate that others will follow in Jon's tracks...and they are.

Jon has to live with that legacy, Rob.  I don't.  Koehler doesn't.  Molloy ruled on the law and his interpretation of the Endangered Species Act and, if you haven't read that ruling, you should...you might find it illuminating and provide you with a better understanding of just how we got to where we are.  Molloy knew if he didn't rule according to the language of the law his ruling would be challenged to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and likely overturned.  So, the language of the law prevailed.  That language, by the way, has not changed.

We can argue whether wolves should be delisted all day and all night, but that ignores the language of the ESA and the specifics of why Molloy ruled the way he did. We can also point fingers at whoever for whatever, but the fact remains that much of what you're saying is theoretical as to what may have happened.  What did happen, however, is that Jon Tester Congressionally delisted wolves with a budget rider...that's the simple truth and we have to live with it and the resulting consequences that are, one week later, already accruing to Tester's precedent.

We can also argue whether or not wolves should be hunted, gassed in their dens, trapped, or poisoned.  There's a growing body of science that says hunting wolves is highly disruptive to their pack social order and may, in fact, lead to increased problems as younger males are driven off and, due to their inexperience, seek easier prey, such as domestic livestock.  George Wuerthner has written some very enlightening and interesting articles about this, if you're at all interested in learning more about the effects of indiscriminate hunting (meaning you don't target problem wolves, but allow any license holder to shoot any wolf they see).

But like I said in the beginning, the issue is much bigger than wolves.  That seems obvious and to keep dragging it back to wolves only appears to be an attempt to ignore the larger ramifications of what Tester did.  That's your option, of course, but for many, those ramifications are very significant, as we are beginning to see.


[ Parent ]
How 'bout "no". (0.00 / 0)
George, I'm not the one dragging this back to wolves.  You're a sharp guy.  Certainly you can read.  So you will see that this post was about unintended consequence from the actions of very human actors and isn't all about wolves.  Well maybe ...

[ Parent ]
Rob, I think you're being a little harsh (0.00 / 0)
Indeed, by trying to place blame so squarely on the environmentalists, I think you make the argument counter productively personal.  But Matt also refuses to note your major point - science has had nothing to do with the environmental movement's efforts to stop wolf hunts.  They want the process to depend on scientists, supposedly, and yet they stopped the Idaho and Montana plans not on biological grounds, but legal ones. And THAT is the precedent that made these riders possibly - putting legalism over science, trusting lawyers and not biologists.  If the pro-wolf forces go to the courts, they have no room to moan that anti-wolf forces went to the Senate, which is at least an elected body.  John Tester merely altered the law to line up to the science.  

And ESA advocates have something to be grateful for - Tester's rider ultimately nipped Idaho and Montana nullification efforts at the bud, and left ESA protection in the hands of the Federal government, where environmentalists on the coasts can continue to work to protect species whose red-state habitats would have consigned them to extinction otherwise.  


You're probably right (0.00 / 0)
For the record, I'm not trying to place blame "squarely on the environmentalists". I'm trying to get any admission of culpability at all.  That effort will fail.  I'm convinced of it.  So I am being harsh, thinking it's necessary.  I'd like to be proven wrong.

There is plenty of blame to go around.  To those who think that they have no say, and yet have had the ultimate say, I am being counter-productive.  But to those who have a say and have done the things that forced this issue to it's current level the counter-productive judgments are all theirs.

I actually trust that state biologists will have sway in Idaho and Montana.  They will be forced to in Washington and Oregon.  That doesn't excuse the conservatism of doing nothing, as others would wish.  


[ Parent ]
I actually liked the post. (0.00 / 0)
When I was working at Wolf Haven, one of the things that was discussed at length was what Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming would do once the wolves populations "stablized". Even there, there were the same two camps you are pointing out now. Oddly enough, the scientists and Vets were saying that a control system had to be developed that included hunts, and the less educated ones (me included, sadly) were saying that all hunting would be bad - it should never happen. I was wrong and I understand now how I was wrong.

As far as the personal arguments, I try to ignore them. I think that Rob's point was well made but it is sometimes hard to follow his logic (I have had years of practice so I really didn't have an issue). He makes a valid point that I really think people can see if they look beyong their own perceived anger over an assumed personal attack.

And for the record, I would love to see the conservation VS preservation argument come out. That would be fun....


Who has the power? (0.00 / 0)
The "blame game" is pure politics.  It's about power, who has it, who doesn't.  Obviously, wolves are vulnerable and have no power.  Those with power have spoken with their actions.

Under the limited protection of the ESA, a federal statute, and rule, wolves expanded their range and numbers, while wolf habitat continued to shrink on public and private lands.

Contrary to popular misconseption, there was management of wolves before, during, and now after being listed as endangered.  There is always management. Everywhere there is management.  

Kailey said of plaintiffs:  "They didn't want rational or scientific management of wolves.  They wanted no management at all.  No hunts, no controls, and no concern whatsoever for those whose lives were actually impacted by a predator in the region.  They sued to get no management, Molloy agreed that there should be no management until Congress would act, and Congress acted."

These are untrue statements based upon what I understand.  

The wolf lawsuit challenged judgments made by DOI/FWS in the delisting rule for Montana and Idaho. One of the principle objections of all 14 plaintiffs was the minimum number of wolves (300) set by the delisting rule.  In other words, the combination of federal control kills, and state control kills, and hunts combined -- this constitutes current management practice -- could reduce, and maintain indefinitely a minimum population of 300 wolves and still qualify as "recovered."  If that (300) recovered population number is "rational or scientific" in any way I am unaware of the scientific data and analysis that supports it.  Enlighten me.

Management is a constant. I would love nothing more than a rational and scientific wolf management plan. Unfortunately, I believe that's a long way off, and we're headed in the wrong direction, for the wrong reasons.

Arguing about who, or what, is progressive, or liberal, seems futile at this point in our bleak history.  Authoritarian neoliberalism and violence has disdain for both.  The vulnerable should run for cover if they want to make the (300) cut.  



Untrue? (0.00 / 0)
Hyperbolic for certain, based on a philosophy not exposed here.  But it's hard to say those comments are untrue when what 'is true' is often the expressed domain of the liberal environmentalists.  That domain appears to remain encompassing what others 'not of the tribe' know, understand or agree with.

George is correct to point out that the settlement was fraught "with maybes", but please notice that he couldn't do it without a jab at my certainty.  It's surprising that he would challenge my certitude considering that I predicted this would happen, and I'm very unclear as to whether or not he ever did.  That's not an 'Ah HAH!  I was right and he was wrong'.  It is a simple example of how the environmentalist left treats those of their brethren who might agree but sometimes don't.

Regardless of the scientific interest behind the legal challenge to the wolf settlement, the court arguments were not of science, but of the law.  Molloy's rulings were of the law.  The law got changed and now no one is happy with the result.  One thing that is personally amusing to me is that particular hue and cry that a reader of this thread should understand the mindset and anger coming from those pointing out the unintended consequences of Tester's rider; that is with no admission of what led to it, and no understanding of the mindset and anger from outside 'the tribe'.

One of the nicer things about having spectacularly failed the liberal litmus test is that is very freeing if one wishes to speak blasphemies.  That's what I've done here.  You are correct, Steve, that the things looked at as the right ("Authoritarian neoliberalism and violence") will appear bleak.  The view from the right is always and very bleak.  But that never acknowledges what really is.  Those who favor rational environmental law aren't to be pegged so easily.  As this argument has progressed, any one who has disagreed with the environmental liberal has been called any manner of names (hysterical, authoritarian, quisling, uninformed, ignorant, Democrat sycophant, that list goes very long.)  See, I'm not allowed the poutrage over the bad consequences from the environmental liberal, because I can't see things clearly like they do.  I'm not allowed to be mad at the silliness I see inherent in the lawsuits to stop what I see as rational control.  I must certainly be irrational, or uninformed, if I would point the finger at any other than the tribe proscribed devil.  And I am certainly an enemy if I point the finger at the tribe itself.

Yet the majority of Montana still sees Montana control of wolves as a good thing.  That includes many Montana liberals who haven't been put through the litmus test yet.  They've often just been dismissed.  I'm not one who takes kindly to being dismissed, and I'm not alone.  Environmental policy being set by lawsuit is getting tiresome to most of us.

So, who has the power?  Ofttimes it's the ones with the biggest legal stick.  But let's not pretend that's anything other than politics.  It isn't.  And, as I've called for here, let's not pretend that politicking is somehow more noble than that of a legislator favoring his constituents with a result that has unintended consequences.  They were all unintended, because no one got what they want.  


[ Parent ]
Didn't happen (0.00 / 0)
Rob -  You wrote: "The law got changed and now no one is happy with the result."

That's simply incorrect.  The ESA did NOT get amended by Tester's rider.  What happened is that he Congressionally directed that the former rule issued by the US Fish and Wildlife Service allowing Montana and Idaho to manage wolves within their borders be reinstated...and that it NOT be subject to judicial review.  That's critical to understanding what went on here for two reasons:  First, the ESA stays the same, but Tester sets a precedent for Congressionally delisting species which is already being followed by others, as per the E&E article I posted above.  The second bad precedent of Tester's rider is the provision to exempt it from judicial review.  We have three branches of government for a very good reason --- namely, checks and balances on abuses of power by any one branch.  To say, as Tester has, that a decision by Congress is not subject to judicial review removes those checks and balances, weakens the judicial branch, and in the end, may be found to be unconstitutional.  I mean, why wouldn't Congress simply remove every bill from judicial review?  These are the problems with what Jon did that go far beyond wolves and ultimately may affect not only all threatened and endangered species, but also the ESA itself.  


[ Parent ]
Fair point (0.00 / 0)
Doesn't change the effect, does it?

[ Parent ]
Thoughts on the terms... (4.00 / 1)
...I know the post wasn't really about Dirk's thoughts on the difference between liberalism and progressivism, but I just wanted to respond to that because I think that's interesting.

For starters, the terms he defines already have definitions. (See the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's entry on liberalism, for example. I happen to fall in the camp that believes "progressive" and "liberal" are interchangeable terms.) For another, he's concerned not with the competing ideologies of the left and their gradations, but on the means by which various groups act, but using ideological terms to describe them.

I'd argue any political movement has splits and squabbles. There are reformers, who want to tweak the system, but preserve it, ultimately; and there are revolutionaries, who want to replace existing institutions with new ones. I'd also argue that, right now, the left does not have revolutionaries, only reformers, and our squabbles are over the celerity, efficacy, and selection of reform.

And I don't think that the Hamshers of the world spoil reforms by pushing too hard. The right has similar splits and competing factions, but they are also extremely well-funded, and their electoral successes have more to do with money than any sort of cohesion. (When Tea Party ideology threatens GOP electoral success and institutions, they will vanish -- probably in time for the 2012 election.) I think the left's squabbles are noticeable because no one has a financial hold on the movement.


i agree that tester did the right thing here (0.00 / 0)
but i see no point in attempting to persuade others who feel strongly about this issue to agree with me. their arguments have some degree of legal theoretical merit but i prefer practical solutions to theoretical perfection so ultimately, i trust FW&P to do the right thing here.

you can do whatever you like with this site, as i have stated many times before. kicking matt off the front page is your call and yours alone. picking a fight with jc over his views is your call. arguing with every progressive who doesn't meet the litmus test of fealty is also your right.

but being mostly sociopathic, i also see that this full frontal in your face approach probably doesn't really serve the best long term interest of the sustainability of this site very well. which is of course, also none of my business. i kind of like diversity in a site. but that's just me.

requiring certain conditions of loyalty to a party before one is invited to participate in a blog is probably not unheard of. but it certainly strikes me as somewhat captain queegish in approach. good luck with that.


p-bear (0.00 / 0)
Do me a favor.  Reread Koehler's Action Alert post again, with the knowledge that Tester's rider had already passed when it was written.  When you get to the bottom of it, insert the words "I'm Denny Rehberg, and I approve this message".  That should make it fairly plain that that post mirrors half of the attack ads which run every cycle.  My first response to Matthew was asking him what he thought he would accomplish.  The answer was already obvious.  He used his voice at this website to run an ad for Rehberg.  That's when the CYA started.  Democrats!  Accountability!  Feets to the Fires!  All of that was precisely in my face, and CFS' latest 'effort' proves that.

I don't know what's going to happen at Left in The West either.  But I do know this.  It will not be a platform for the Senate campaign of Dennis Rehberg.  That's not demanding party loyalty.  It is demanding a little respect, something that many seem willing to expect but rarely to give.


[ Parent ]
So I am a little confused here (0.00 / 0)
Rob says that he did not take away Koehler's front page posting priviledges. Further, he stated that Matt did not either. In fact, he has stated this many times. Koehler comments on this thread (and others) accusing Rob and Matt of removing those priviledges (how he would know who did it is something of a mystery other than having a persecution complex).

What I am confused about is that more than one commenter on this thread (and others over at 4 & 20) have accepted that Rob did this thing and are stating this as fact. Do you, P-Bear, know for a fact that it was Rob that took Matt's priviledges away? You state it as a fact, but is it?

I won't try to say that I don't have an issue with Koehler - I do and have had for years. His self righteous BS has gone up my backside sideways and continues to do so. That said, given a choice between believing Rob or Koehler, I choose to believe Rob until I see some kind of evidence to the contrary. Left in the West hasn't changed nor do I see any evidence that Rob is saying it is his way or the Highway. What he does seem to be saying is that this site is to support the views and the principles of Democrats (in all their interesting variety), and posts/authors/rants that do nothing but attack Democrats to the benefit of the Republicans will not be promoted. Maybe I mis-interpret his statements/intentions but I kind of doubt it.


[ Parent ]
the approach that matt takes irritates many including me moorcat (0.00 / 0)
and the length of his diatribes does dissuade anyone except masochists like myself to read them, but i have learned to not judge so harshly by the cover anymore with lots of commenters. maybe i am mellowing with age but when i am more receptive to what others are saying sometimes i learn a few things i didn't know before. even larry has surprised me on occasion with a small nugget of wisdom within his runaway ore carts of overburdensome language. so i do read matt for content. he is exhaustive in his research if not a little overboard in his emotional attachment to what he believes in.

that being said, i wish more people were as passionate about what they believe in as matt and larry were. the country would be in better shape. as far as what rob said and what matt said i don't care. my point was that it is difference of opinion that makes horse races and without that you have no reason to bother reading anything here.

but as far as judging who deserves front page posting privileges, i am glad i don't have to do that. j-girl does that at 4 and 20 and it seems like a tough and thankless job. so i don't judge quite so harshly the decision. i am just musing as to the consequences of the long term health of this blog. because at some point we will have to band together to support obama and tester's re-election or face dire consequences in january of 2013. what is the best way to ensure that readership and interest is maintained in order for left in the west to provide support for those politicians we may have significant differences with but we surely know are better than the rehberg and trump/palin nightmare scenario?

i just know that coming from a fighting catholic family who threw every piece of furniture out in the yard during all of our screaming matches, open free dialogue is always preferable to hiding everything and pretending everybody is hunky dory when it isn't.    


[ Parent ]
As far as I know (based on what I have read here) - (0.00 / 0)
No one is being removed from Left in the West. Koehler has lost his front page priviledges (and there are at least four admins that I know of that could have done it) but he can still post a diary. The issues between Rob and Matt notwithstanding, he hasn't been removed as of the last I knew. Disregarding the personal issues and name calling, I would have to agree that diaries that try to hurt or call for lack of votes for Democratic Candidates should probably not be promoted to the front page of a Blog known for driving support for Democratic Candidates - that is really all I am saying. I am not an admin, though, and I leave those decisions to those that are.

You are a better man that I when it comes to reading Matt's posts. I usually give up within the first paragraph. Larry I can somewhat tolerate because he tends to be brief (though I rarely know what the hell he is talking about). As a reader, I can choose not to read the posts and comments by those that make them. It is one of those free choice things.

Open dialog does not mean advocating the demise of a Democratic Candidate. I am all for open dialog. I, too, disagreed with Tester's rider - for different reason than most that post here - the fact remains. Still, even given my issues with his rider, I would still probably vote for him, especially if comes down to a race between him and Rehberg. What I think Rob was trying to say, though, was that certain posts were probably not promoted because, by their very message, they - maybe inadvertently - promoted just the nightmare scenario you fear, Rehberg as Senator, Trump/Palin in the White House. If a post advocates - even accidently - that a reader should not vote for Tester (maybe advocating for a third party choice... Ahem...), they are strengthening the chance that Rehberg will be Senater in 2013. Absent a choice better than Tester, what would you suggest? Would you suggest not voting for Tester?

I would love to see a better choice than Tester/Rehberg, certainly. I do not see Tester as the Corporate Whore that Baucus is, but he does seem to make choices that are corporate sponsored occationally. Rehberg would be a complete waste and there doesn't seem to be anyone better coming from the right. What choices do even a moderate conservative like myself have? I will end up voting for Tester because the result would be far better than Senator Rehberg. The point, though, is that I am NOT Tester's base. This site is to promote, energize, and direct that base, not suggest that visitors should make other choices at the ballot box.

Sorry, this ended up longer than I intended but I hope that those reading this will actually try to take a moment, drop the pained victim stance and actually try to understand where Rob is coming from. He has been a staunch supporter for the Left for at least as long as I have been back home (and from all indications, even longer). He might not always agree with Tester (or any other Democratic Candidate) but he has certainly been there to point out how it could be SO much worse. He and I have had our share of arguments about politics and the one thing I can count on is that while I might not agree with his conclusions, he ALWAYS has a reason for them. I trust him and his predictions/conclusions and prognastications have an alarming way of coming true.  


[ Parent ]
Precedent? (0.00 / 0)
I might be missing something, but I'm not sure what precedent is really being set.  I mean, there were the spotted owl riders during Bush I, and Pres. Carter signed an appropriations bill that included a rider allowing the Tellico Dam to be built notwithstanding the ESA.  

Confirm thy soul in self control, thy liberty in law.

Answer to your precedent question CharleyCarp (0.00 / 0)
Hello CharleyCarp:  The precedent with Senator Tester's wolf rider is that this is the first time a species has been delisted by Congress in the history of the ESA, 38 years. I've checked with a couple of ESA attorneys and this is fundamentally different than the Tellico Dam/Snail Darter case of the 1970s, which just let a project move forward.

I'm not aware of any "spotted owl riders during Bush I." Can you perhaps elaborate?  There really wasn't a "spotted owl rider" per say, except for the 1995 Salvage Logging Rider, signed into law by President Clinton.  The '95 Salvage Rider suspended environmental laws to allow old-growth timber sales in spotted owl habitat to move forward, but did not wade into whether a species should be protected or not.

Al Gore later called the '95 Salvage Rider the Clinton/Gore Administration's biggest mistake on the environment.  


[ Parent ]
Hmmm (0.00 / 0)
Lawsuit, Congressional action.  Lawsuit, Congressional action. Lawsuit, Congressional action.  I'm well aware of the legal meaning of 'precedent', Koehler.  I'm just having a really hard time seeing the difference you want to establish here.

Charley is correct.  Riders that undermine the ESA are not a new thing under the sun.  Claiming that a species protected is no longer protected and that's new and different ... well it really isn't.  In a legal sense, I'm certain you're correct.  But you continue to fail showing Montanans why they should care.


[ Parent ]
Honest question, honest answer (0.00 / 0)
Rob: CharleyCarp asked an honest question and, after consulting with two attorneys that focus on the ESA, I gave him an honest answer. You can try and sing and dance around the issue all you want or put words in people's mouths.  Fact is, Sen Tester's wolf rider was the first time in the 38 year history of the ESA that Congress stepped in with a rider to delist a species. Let's check back and see how this precedent has played out in 5, 10, 25 or 50 years, shall we?

[ Parent ]
Thank you for restating ... (0.00 / 0)
what you'd already said.  I just responded that you were making a distinction without a difference.

[ Parent ]
Dance, Rob, Dance (0.00 / 0)
What to you may be "a distinction without a difference" is, in fact, to experienced ESA attorneys and ESA policy wonks a difference that's a precedent. I don't expect you to understand or acknowledge this point Rob. Thanks.  

[ Parent ]
Speaking of dancing ... (0.00 / 0)
Let's check back and see how this precedent has played out in 5, 10, 25 or 50 years, shall we?

Since you've already made up your mind about how things will go, I sure hope for all of the "ESA attorneys and ESA policy wonks" that you are guys are correct.  Boy howdy, it sure would reflect good on you, wouldn't it?  Of course, I hope for the rest of us, oh, and those animals you care so deeply about, that you're wrong.  If you are, at least you'll have your specious point of law to comfort you.

And I owe you the Thanks.  With every comment you leave, you more fully illustrate the very point of this post.


[ Parent ]
You must have missed this point Rob (0.00 / 0)
Written down below, before you even posted your latest attempt to...???

Suffice to say, I hope you are right and 25 years down the road we'll look back and think that the Tester wolf rider was really no big thang.

Yep, you're so right Rob. Those of us who have dedicated our lives (and put up with lots of shit) to protect public lands, ancient forests and wildlife...well, boy howdy, we actually want the forests, wildlife and lands destroyed. Defenders of Wildlife should be called Destroyers of Wildlife, right Robbie?

P.S. Still looking forward to all your verification of all my supposed lies.


[ Parent ]
Actually, Mr. Self Important (0.00 / 0)
You've missed the point.  That's why you flee directly to the fallacy of the False Dilemma, as well as an appeal to personal authority, I might add.

You'll notice that I've responded to your "down below" down below.

And here's a concept you may want to warm up to someday, Koehler.  All of us put up with "lots of shit", even those of us who don't quest night and day to save us from ourselves.  Right now, you don't strike me as a helluva lot different from Pat Robertson. Putting up with "lots of shit" gives you no special place in the universe, snowflake. It's part of the human condition.  Whatever you've "dedicated your life to" is no more important than the cause of anyone else dedicating their life to what they think is important.  You just have better PR, even if you have to generate it yourself.  


[ Parent ]
Since you're so into pointing out corrections in other people's writings... (0.00 / 0)
It should be pointed out that you have completely re-written my comment, "Those of us who have dedicated our lives..." to more suit your needs and your latest mantra. I wrote "those" "us" and "our" for a reason, Rob.

It's funny, but I keep on trying to make this about the important issues at play here, but from time to time you have made this really personal...claiming for a time it was my lawsuit, saying I had to "own up" to my failings.  Please knock that off. I should be able to speak my mind about these issues without you calling me MSI or JC the Drama Queen.

And honestly, Rob, I have appreciated and gained some insights from some of your substantive perspective on the issue. Truly I have.  


[ Parent ]
That's the buggaboo (0.00 / 0)
I wasn't pointing out a correction in your "writing".  I was pointing out flaws in your thinking and your actions.

I have particular rules of respect for my fellow humans, especially online.  I don't share emails with those for whom they were never intended, I do not post private converse online, I do not expect that anyone owes me anything and I do not willfully assume authorities at a website that is not mine, including this one.  You've done all of the above, and what I get from you for all that is "Robbie"?  As I indicated, we all put up with "lots of shit".  You might want to acknowledge that you dished out a bit yourself.

Irregardless (I know that word drives many folks crazy) you do have this forum to state your peace.  My complaint about that has never and never will be personalized.  You allude to the idea that my stance here is somehow about offense I have taken.  You couldn't be more wrong.  I have taken offense, but it isn't personal.  It is the offense taken by many Montanans, I would rightly think most, that we are tired of environmental policy being set by lawsuit from "ESA policy wonks".  Wolves should be delisted in Montana and Idaho, though I am beginning to question Idaho ...

I am not alone in my view.  You can point to as many ESA policy wonks as you wish, but most of us in this state demand local control of a local predator.  That includes the majority of Democrats and leftists.  Jon Tester provided that.  The nice thing about working among working folk is that I get to actually hear what their concerns are, and strangely they do not mirror ESA policy wonks.  People seem to want local control in Montana.  Funny that.

This really isn't about the elegant definitions of law.  And it really isn't about you.  My problem with JC is that he really does think this is about him.  It isn't.  This is about wolves, and not some science fiction of the horrors to come.  I've asked before, if you're honest you'll recognize this, that we remove this issue from speculation.  That hasn't been done.  It isn't the moderates who are fighting such a move.  It's the ESA Wonks.  "Precedent" they now revile and offer as a standard of fear.  Precedent could have been allowing rational control of a species recovered, but that wasn't good enough.  So we'll see what happens.


[ Parent ]
Precedent (0.00 / 0)

I don't think it'll be a problem Matthew, because the Wolf situation is pretty unique.

We (Montana) had cleaned out these predators almost a century ago, and some brainiac had the ill-conceived idea to import a bunch from Canada and put them here, and then declare them endangered, which they're not - they're thriving up North.


Winter Weather Advisory for Hell- (0.00 / 0)
I'm about to agree with Coobs, to an extent.  Wolves are not endangered.  Given that the sub-species that was introduced to Yellowstone was from elsewhere, there is no question of genetic diversity here, merely geographical extent.  How then is it appropriate to cover this species under the ESA?  I'm not going to say we need to eliminate them, but they do seem like rather a unique case.  

Moreover, Matt K., you seem to have been raised in a courtroom.  A difference that's a precedent is surely a valid point, if we were speaking about courtroom decisions.  We are not, so the legal opinions of a million lawyers are really unimportant now.  Legislation will not be technically any easier to pass removing animals from the ESA.  This is especially true since only a tiny percentage of wolves in the United States lost their protected status with Tester's rider, a very different story than with most species protected under the ESA.  
 


Nope, PW, not raised in a courtroom... (0.00 / 0)
I was raised by a house-painting dad and a nursing mom in Sheboygan County, Wisconsin. However, my younger brother is an attorney, and a law professor at Butler University. http://leftinthewest.com/diary...

Honestly, it's getting pretty confusing to keep the language you guys are using straight...difference, precedent, distinction, etc.

Over the past week I've spoken with experienced ESA attorneys and ESA policy wonks (who have worked the halls of Congress on ESA issues for years).  To a person, they all believe a (bad) precedent has been set by Senator Tester's wolf rider and that the wolf rider will make it easier for other politicians to simply remove species through legislation or riders in the future.

As I previously stated, let's check back and see how this precedent has played out in 5 or 25 years. Suffice to say, I hope you are right and 25 years down the road we'll look back and think that the Tester wolf rider was really no big thang.


[ Parent ]
Again, speaking of dancing (0.00 / 0)
There's a very significant view that has been raised time and again, and for all the wonkery supposedly at play here, it hasn't been addressed.  PW brought it up again very clearly:

Wolves are not endangered.

No one has argued that Tester's delisting rider set a "good" precedent.  We've haggled over the significance of the precedent, for certain.  But the point made in the post, and several times elsewhere has been avoided by the Science worshiping ESA wonks completely.  Wolves in Montana and Idaho were recovered, as in, "not endangered".  The lawsuits to stop local control were upheld based on point of law.  Tester changed the rules of the law as a legislator should, legally, with the idea that wolves in these states were "not endangered".  All of the science fiction coming from the "ESA Wonks" about precedent and consequence simply dances around the real and main point of the very post in which these comments occur.  Wolves were due to be delisted, because they were not endangered.  Judicial action blocked administrative action so legislative action was taken.

This grand Tarantella about the horrors to come in the future is just a smoke screen.  It is intended to hide the fact that the ESA Wonks were wrong, and their incorrect actions also have consequence.  


[ Parent ]
Alright, lets do that (0.00 / 0)
But until then, could you answer me why a species the IUCN lists as being 'of least concern' is covered in an act designed to defend 'endangered' species?

[ Parent ]
Answer to your question is contained here (0.00 / 0)
Molloy's August 5, 2010 ruling:
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-pr...

Defenders et al, August 29, 2009 brief:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/30...

Western Watershed et al March 22, 2011 brief:
http://www.westernwatersheds.o...


[ Parent ]
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