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Matt Singer works for Forward Montana. He also is a partner in DP Productions, a small, Montana-based T-Shirt company.


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A hypothetical question

by: Jay Stevens

Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 13:11:09 PM MST


I'm sure we'll see this story - "Court ruling chilled Justice probe of Conrad Burns" -- written about on the "Burns exonerated" websites, right?
Jay Stevens :: A hypothetical question
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Looks like the Missoulian is taking Option C too... (0.00 / 0)
Hypothetical counter-question: Can a blogger stained with intellectual dishonesty credibly call for intellectual honesty among his opponents?

Really though, this is a pretty ridiculous article.  The DoJ went farther with Jefferson than it had ever done before - so far that even Republican leadership condemned the actions.  The issue is Separation of Powers.

It's not like this court ruling removed a medium of investigation that had always been available in the past rendering the Burns investigation less thorough than previous investigations.  This court ruling merely checked (and balanced) a new investigative approach that overstepped the separation of powers.

In any case, for this article to be at all relevant to Burns you'd have to show that the DoJ was prevented from searching Burns' office for evidence when there is very little chance that would have otherwise occurred.  Besides, wasn't all of this shady behavior supposed to have happened at Signatures where the DoJ still had free reign?


Opinion (0.00 / 0)
Can a blogger stained with intellectual dishonesty credibly call for intellectual honesty among his opponents?

You really don't have the first clue what blogging is all about, do you MTSimpinel?


[ Parent ]
One thing blogging is not, and that is sitting around agreeing with one particular point of view all the time. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
On the contrary, Interested (0.00 / 0)
Sometimes, it is.  The questions are:  Who are you to say one way or another, and why should a blogger listen to that opinion, regardless?

[ Parent ]
Wulgar, we listen to the stuff you put out all the time, this is about an honest exchange of ideas, not brainwashing..... (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
??? (0.00 / 0)
Do you care to translate that enough so that it makes sense in English?  My gibberish is a bit rusty.

[ Parent ]
based on the rightie blogs (0.00 / 0)
it is...

[ Parent ]
Blogging Defined (0.00 / 0)
Wulfgar, good to know we have experts on blogging here. What ever would we do without you?

[ Parent ]
Don't be so petty and dim, Dave. (0.00 / 0)
I didn't define blogging; I simply rejected a stupidly simple assessment of it.  Even you could have pulled that one off without inspiring derision.  

Then again, maybe you couldn't have.


[ Parent ]
Petty? (0.00 / 0)
Whose being petty?  I read the question as being rhetorical and you took it as being literal.  Whose being dim? As for being derisive - you're the expert.  

[ Parent ]
And yet .. (0.00 / 0)
You took me literally enough to claim I was "defining" something in a pathetic effort to score meaningless points.  You truly are a great wanker, Dave.

Petty, thy name is Budge.


[ Parent ]
Hypocrite (0.00 / 0)
And what kid of "meaningful" points were you trying to make pointing out his understanding of blogging? What a putz.

[ Parent ]
One more thing since your so obtuse (0.00 / 0)
I didn't take your comment as rhetorical, I took the opening question by MtSentinal as rhetorical.  But you're too stupid to see that is was.

[ Parent ]
Oh Dave, for shame, (0.00 / 0)
You, of all folk, know that calling an assumption-laden question 'hypothetical' is the precise opposite of rhetorical.  It was accusatory.  And here you are, arrogantly assuming that no one else will be smart enough to have seen that.  You should be embarrassed by your elitist pontification.  Seeing his question for what it was wasn't stupid.  Pretending that it wasn't an accusation ... now that's pretty dim.

But no, I'm sure that if you get more red-faced and barrel-chested about your denials, you'll convince everyone that your tough reasoning will make something into what it wasn't.  I mean really, everyone knows that MTSentinal's question was just harmless rhetoric.  Come on, Dave.  Puff up some more.  Strive for that righteous aneurysm.  You've worked for it!  You've earned it!  Go for it, Big Fella!

Or ... you could just admit that you backed the wrong pony.  You could acknowledge that MTSentinal tried to chide Jay into admitting wrong-doing that Jay has no earthly reason to admit, based on a false assumption of what blogging is.  That would be the simple, honest path, and we already know you'd never choose the obvious when the self-aggrandizing presents itself.

You truly are a wanker, but please keep it up.  I'm having a barrel of fun with this.


[ Parent ]
huh? (0.00 / 0)
You could acknowledge that MTSentinal tried to chide Jay into admitting wrong-doing that Jay has no earthly reason to admit, based on a false assumption of what blogging is.

Geeze, what the heck does that even mean?  Even if I was trying to invoke some action on Jay's behalf (I wasn't, I was just making a rhetorical point as Dave pointed out), how in the world would that be based on a false assumption of what blogging is.

For that matter if blogging is "whatever the blogger wants it to be about." how is it even possible to have a false assumption about what it is?  Your definition seems to encompass any possible assumption about blogging that anyone would care to make.


[ Parent ]
I guess not... (0.00 / 0)
If it's more than crude name-play (MTSimpinel?  Really.  Channeling some Eco-Ranger are we?), then no I have no idea what blogging is all about.  I humbly ask you to enlighten me Wulfgar!.  What is blogging all about?

In realms outside of this mysterious blogging world, credibility is a rather important aspect of persuasion.  Credibility is established by trustworthiness among other things.  And trustworthiness is lost when someone lies to further an agenda and then squirrels around said lie with tortured spin and doubletalk desperately looking for a way to keep the wool over they eyes of their audience.

Wow.  That was verbose.  Sorry.

PS- How come your LITW username doesn't have a "!" in it?


[ Parent ]
Aren't you the wordy one? (0.00 / 0)
What is blogging all about?

Simply put, it's whatever the blogger wants it to be about.  You're adult enough to handle the idea of free will, right?

credibility is a rather important aspect of persuasion.

There's those expectations of yours, getting in the way of any real understanding.  Credibility is lent by the reader, not enforced by the blogger.  That you expect otherwise shows your ignorance of a communication dynamic.  Those who want something from you often have an interest in fostering your trust, even to the point of lying.  Bloggers only require your readership.  It's kinda funny, but you claim Jay has no 'credibility' and yet you keep on reading.  Agenda achieved.  Welcome to the world of online opinion.

How come your LITW username doesn't have a "!" in it?

That's funny.  My username at my own website doesn't have one either.  How very odd.


[ Parent ]
hmm... (0.00 / 0)
"whatever the blogger wants it to be about"

Oh, I think I get it.  Thanks for educating me.  You're far smarter than me - so I appreciate your patience in explaining something that's so easy for you to understand while I struggle.

Wait...

Sorry, I must be pretty dumb because I still don't get it.  If blogging is about whatever the blogger wants it to be then there's no right or wrong assumption about blogging since it can be anything.

So I don't understand why you would say, "You really don't have the first clue what blogging is all about?"  Since your definition of blogging is that it doesn't have a definition - help me with this - what definition did I violate?


[ Parent ]
Your logic is atrocious (0.00 / 0)
Saying that something has a high number of possible definitions is not at all the same as saying that it has no definition.  The part you erred on (badly) was assigning your own meaning and standards to Jay's writing, and then petulantly demanding that he satisfy them.

So, yeah, all in all, I'd say you must be pretty dumb.  


[ Parent ]
who lied? (0.00 / 0)
there's a question for you.

[ Parent ]
about the "liar" swipe (0.00 / 0)
I wrote a post about an unsubstantiated rumor that either appeared to be untrue, or events changed to make it untrue. I labeled it as a "rumor."

I sincerely believe Burns acted unethically. I have plenty of links to authoritative sources that make my case. I believe a reasonable person would agree with me. I stand by my beliefs that money shouldn't play a central role in politics, and that a representative should serve his constituency and not lobbyists and their clients.

I do regret that some righties have distorted my original post to fit their preconceptions about me and leftys in general. (Apparently I now also wrote the TPM post that I linked to...?) I'll still be glad to pit my reputation that Burns' voting records and actions in office were as I have characterized them.


[ Parent ]
Your credibility hangs now by the threads of your belief? (0.00 / 0)
Jay, the entire "Burns was unethical" meme was built like an upside down house of cards predicated upon the sole premise of a DoJ investigation - an investigation of wrong-doing.  That premise - which was substantiated by anonymous sources - has fallen and it stands to reason (since you're appealing to "reasonable persons") that any evidence that was based on it must similarly fall.

So while you wax eloquent about "plenty of links" and "authoritative sources" I contend that all of those links and sources depended on the DoJ investigation as their source.  That house of cards doesn't stand any more.  Produce your links and sources.

Beyond being cleared of wrong-doing in relation to Abramoff, Burns was never accused of wrong-doing which would necesitate his being cleared.  The only place he is guilty of anything is in your personal beliefs.

And that's the weight of the evidence that you have now collapsed to: "I sincerely believe that Burns acted unethically."  You know Jay, there are people who believe the world is flat and some who believe in White Supremacy.  Fortunately, believing something don't make it so.  As reasonable people, we have something beyond personal beliefs to sort out the valid beliefs from the invalid ones.  That something is evidence - the basis of reason.

I suppose that it's possible that you did not lie, but given the collapse of evidence around you, the continued belief in the conclusions that were supported by said evidence suggests that your problem may be more deeply rooted in intellectual defect or blind partisan denial.


[ Parent ]
Collapse of evidence? (0.00 / 0)
I was writing about Burns' "ethics" long before it was revealed the DoJ was investigating him.

Like Matt said, it's possible Burns voted for slave labor, forced prostitution and abortions, and a weak border on principle, and not as a favor for an old pal and a small campaign contribution. It's also possible that Burns earmarked for his lobbyist friends on principle. Or designated money for tribes that didn't need it (but who donated generously to Abramoff) on principle. Or created a non-profit organization, in which his friends and family members received paychecks, but didn't do any work, on principle. Or, or, or...

None of these things are in dispute, by the way. The question is, did Burns realize what he was doing? Did he do it for money? Or was he incompetent? Or did his staff do him wrong? Or did he see Washington DC as a big party, where you do favors for your friends in exchange for being a US Senator?

There's no good way to spin his record, IMHO. You can try...


[ Parent ]
"stained with intellectual dishonesty"? (0.00 / 0)
Cute. What the hell are you talking about?

[ Parent ]
Their interest in his computers was purely academic..? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Not Relevant, Jay (0.00 / 0)
Conrad sent a letter to DOJ inviting review of any and all documents, official and campaign, and provided access to same.  The letter was given to the media by me personally.

To my knowledge the DOJ never asked for a single document.  Ever.

The court ruling is in response to executive branch seizing docs from the legislative branch.  No seizures were warranted since they were given access to anything they wanted.


interesting... (0.00 / 0)
...so the DOJ ended its investigation of Burns without reviewing any documents?

[ Parent ]
When I left the office... (0.00 / 0)
...there had been no request by DoJ.  Doesn't mean there weren't requests after I left, but I'd have no knowledge of them.

Regardless, if the files were readily available and freely given, the court ruling would have no impact on any investigation of Conrad Burns.

I'd take issue with the 'chilling effect' headline for that reason.


[ Parent ]
With all respect, (0.00 / 0)
There were those of us who questioned the diligence of the any investigation after Burns had been removed from office.  (For my part, I stated and believed quite clearly that I didn't care one way or the other.)  Those questions remain, and editorial boards will take license with them, just as will those who claim "exoneration".

[ Parent ]
As I understand it... (0.00 / 0)
Burns was never the target of any investigation.  He was a party of interest in the investigation of Abramoff.

[ Parent ]
OK, now I'm with you guys....... (0.00 / 0)
You folks are just upset because Burns had his name cleared and the public may think that in part Tester was elected based on false information......hhhmmmmm, just a thought.

actually... (0.00 / 0)
I'm a little annoyed that righties are running around the streets throwing flowers under Burns' feet, obscuring the very real question of money and politics and ethics.

[ Parent ]
I'd be annoyed too Jay if I were in your shoes..... (0.00 / 0)
It's a bit hard to defend some of the actions of folks who worked to get Burns dumped, it's call "egg on your tie" I believe. Hey, I'm ok with it, it could happen to any of us, me included, I get pretty charged up from time to time about my favorite candidate and when they fall off the pedastal you look foolish, been there done that. Tester ran a good campaign, worked hard and he won, but was it based entirely on truth? I don't think so, but I'm just one opinion and you know what they about about opinions, they're like smelly arm pits, everybody's got a couple.

[ Parent ]
Based entirely on truth? (0.00 / 0)
You've yet to show how Tester's campaign was in any way based on an untruth.  Witness your enormous arrogance!  You think, for no other than you think it, that Tester jumped on the 'Burns is a criminal' bandwagon.  No, he didn't.  Tester claimed that Burns was too cozy with lobbyists, a claim agreed with by a majority of Montana.  That Tester was elected on a lie is your own fantasy.

But let's us see here.  Did Burns claim he would only serve two terms while trying to get elected twice?  Yes.  Was that a lie?  Hell yes!  You think that your own opinion and innuendo equal lies and falsehood, and ignore the obvious and blatant lies that stand out.  Was Burns' campaign based entirely on truth?  Not even a little.  Are you completely full of yourself while trying to goad a blogger into satisfying your need for moral redemption?  Of course you are.


[ Parent ]
I don't need any moral redemption...... (0.00 / 0)
but I'm sure getting a big kick out of your folks on the left who got a big dose of just what you didn't want, the truth about a portion of the Conrad Burns campaign, that you all hoped wouldn't find it's way into the main stream media. Be careful Wulfgar, Jon Tester is a nice man but he's no saint either and somewhere along the line somebody's gonna knock some paint off of him too, he's human and he doesn't walk on water!

[ Parent ]
No need to worry (0.00 / 0)
Interested, I've met the man.  I know he's human.  I can live with that.  What I find amusing is that ever since the news broke that Conrad Burns wasn't being investigated anymore, persons such as yourself have been trying to make this an indictment of Jon Tester.  Leaving the hypocrisy of that completely to the side, I find it funny that the personal 'responsibility crowd' are so interested in blaming another for their failings.

[ Parent ]
I'd like to read this exchange ... (0.00 / 0)
Right now the text is spilling over into the next room.

Actually its not that different from those old arguments at second recess... (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
We are simply..... (0.00 / 0)
beating a dead horse's ass here!  Hey, if the Repubbies want to  apotheosize an ignorant, venal, corrupt, racist old buffoon like sen. corndog buns, I say let'em!  Maybe they can name the airport in Billings after Buns.  The sen. cornbread buns international airport!  And maybe a statue downtown, with his open hand outstretched as if taking a "donation"!

"We got everything we ever wanted from sen. buns", Jackoff Abrahams!  That's all we need to know bout Buns!

Cornbread is living proof that crime does pay.


And if they did that Larry, they'd have to erect 2 statues, one of you right next to the Senator, so the pigeons would know which one to use! (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Touche! (0.00 / 0)
Yes but, I at least I wouldn't have my hand out.  

[ Parent ]
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