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Rob Kailey is a working schmuck with no ties or affiliations to any governmental or political organizations, save those of sympathy.

Obama and Clinton in Missoula: from a Clinton supporter

by: Anna

Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 14:40:55 PM MST


(Another perspective on the visits (that may provide some insight for Obama fans on how to talk to those with whom they disagree). - promoted by Matt Singer)

So I attended both Barack Obama's rally at the Adams Center, and Hillary Clinton's town hall meeting at the Neptune Aviation hangar.  I didn't think these rallies would change my opinions on the candidates in any significant way, and they haven't.  I thought it would be worthwhile, however, to present the perspective of a Clinton supporter on these two events.  With photos!  
Anna :: Obama and Clinton in Missoula: from a Clinton supporter
Rather than go through the play-by-play of both speeches, which you can read in the Missoulian, I thought I'd share my general impressions of the candidates, their rhetoric, and the attendees of both events.

In line for Obama, I alienated myself from my line mates.  All they did was complain about Hillary Clinton, and in a really stupid way. "She's a bitch." "She has such a sense of entitlement." "She's bitter." "She's lost her femininity." At the final comment, I rolled my eyes very obviously, shook my head, and turned away from them.  I find it ironic that these very same people certainly lept to their feet when Obama promised that he would provide something to support, rather that something to be against - the people I talked to seemed to be anti-Clinton more than pro-Obama.  

As my friends and I settled into our seats (by the way, the seating scheme was total bunk and I was really annoyed about being told that I had to sit in some particular section) I mentioned to an acquaintance that I supported Clinton over Obama.  Someone I've never met before jumped on me: "Do you know what she has done with trade in South America?" I said "yes, do you know about the trade agreement with Peru that Obama supported?"  She admitted that she didn't.  Nearly every Obama supporter I've met is remarkably good at criticizing the splinter in Clinton's eye while ignoring the plank in Obama's.

When considering Obama's campaign rhetoric, I mostly wonder what will happen when he lets his supporters down when he's president - which will undoubtedly happen, because a number of his supporters literally see him as some kind of extra-human force in politics (a woman sitting next to me said "This is just like hearing Martin Luther King, Jr speak!"  Uhh, no). It seems like people will either become angry and disillusioned (historians suggest this occurred in the 60s as a result of JFK and LBJ's failed policies) or they'll find some excuse for every misstep he makes. I don't think either of these things are really good for the country.  He's undoubtedly an engaging speaker (though, another logistical complaint: I had a difficult time hearing a lot of what he said - I bet I completely misheard about 20% of the speech because the sound system was so wonky) but I just didn't buy it.  


This is a picture of Obama making googly eyes at me.

The next morning, I was in line EARLY to see Clinton.  More than two hours before the doors opened, in fact.  My friends who saw Obama with me bailed out on Clinton, and I ended up making friends in line with a female pharmacy student at the university who was a Clinton supporter, and an Obama supporter from Helena (He seems like the type who reads blogs, so if he's reading this - hi, Jared!).  All three of us had been at the Obama rally the day before with groups of friends or family, and all three of us were coming alone to see Clinton.  While waiting in line, a girl in front of me said "The Hillary line is officially a party!" to someone on her cell phone, and I think she was right.  It was a pretty jolly bunch of people, and I had a good time.  

My new Hillary friends and I snagged seats in the third row of the audience, and sat around for about 2 1/2 hours waiting for Clinton to appear (she was about half an hour late).  To be fair, I had a couple of logistical complaints about the Clinton rally as well.  Four bathrooms for 1,800 people?  Bad idea.  The elevator music playing over the sound system?  Lame.  The chairs?  Uncomfortable.  

Clinton was introduced by Sen. Carol Williams and Commissioner Jean Curtis.  In a DailyKos blog - for which I've lost track of the link - a diarist considered Clinton's big-name local supporters "old-line Democrats," which I think is incredibly disrespectful, considering all the amazing work that women like Carol Williams and Carol Juneau have done in this state.  I haven't even been here for a year, and I have a sense of this already.  It would do Obama supporters well, I think, not to be so glib about the men and women who support Clinton, and the work we've done for the Democratic Party through the years.  I encountered a 77-year-old woman in line who was an ardent Clinton supporter, and expressed many of the frustrations I feel in this primary.  I can't listen to MSNBC or Air America anymore.  I feel like my point of view is constantly disrespected and is often purposely misconstrued.  I could go on, and on, and on, but Jay really made this point for me in his post about Clinton's appearance.  We Clinton supporters are real people, and we've come by our positions honestly, and we're tired of being attacked.  

As I'm sure you're aware, this was a town hall style meeting, so she took questions from the audience about her campaign, welfare reform, the Americans With Disabilities Act, illegal immigration, the role Bill will play in her administration, the Iraq War, etc. I was really impressed with the detailed information she was able to pull from her head about all of these topics - I'm sure she's asked about some of them at every campaign stop, but some of them were specific to Montana, or were kind of esoteric policy issues that aren't interesting to most people. But she was able to give a specific answer to each questioner. She's an incredibly, incredibly smart lady...she really knows her stuff, and I admire that a lot. I don't always agree with her (I think her immigration reform policy is needlessly punitive, but I get that a lot of people really disagree with me, and she defended Bill's welfare reform act, which is something else I'm not on board with), but I admire that she's willing to give people the opportunity to question her like that, and to criticize her.  What I want in a president is someone who is able to think on his/her feet as Clinton did yesterday, someone who is able to move away from the teleprompter for a bit.  

She cut the questioning off a little before 1 p.m. so she could shake hands. That probably points to a big difference I saw between the Obama and Clinton appearances. Obama's was really kind of a rock star appearance. He didn't spend much time talking to people, and he certainly didn't answer unscripted audience questions. Hillary answered questions, and then stayed afterward, shaking hands, taking photos, autographing, and talking to people one-on-one. I was three rows from the front, so I wasn't close enough to say anything to her, but I did get to shake her hand and thank her for being there. It was pretty awesome.

I still very sincerely believe that Hillary Clinton is the best candidate for president who is still in the running, and the political punditry/media narrative surrounding her candidacy really, really bothers me.  However, after seeing Obama speak, I am more at peace with the idea that Obama will probably be the nominee now.  His ideas are mostly fine (though his health plan is a real sticking point for me) and he'd obviously be a better president than McCain.  If he's the nominee, though, I'll feel very strongly that the best candidate did not win.  

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Sorry we didn't meet in person on Sunday (0.00 / 0)
I was the loudmouth wandering by the line trying to register voters -- we got 46 in that line and a ton of signatures for the Healthy Montana Kids initiative.

Thanks for the perspective.


You must have started (0.00 / 0)
at the back of the Clinton line.  I didn't see anyone from organizations until I was almost in the building.  

Once my semester winds down, I plan to stop by the Progressive Happy Hour, so we'll meet someday, I'm sure.


[ Parent ]
Health plan as defining difference??? (0.00 / 0)
The difference between Clinton's mandate for Universal healthcare, and Obama's lack thereof is meaningless. It only serves as a niggling point to start arguments between constiutent groups that really aren't committed to comprehensive health care reform, and have little understanding of the enormity, inefficiencies, and failings of the current system--which they would use as a basis to "patch together" a universal system that still contains all those inefficiencies and failings.

Clinton and Obama's health care plans are very weak, possibly the weakest of their domestic policies. True health care reform needs to take on a single-payer system. The Medicare For All movement promises a far greater reform vision with a true grassroots movement to implement meaningful health care reform (FM are you listening?).

I'd go into details, but this isn't the venue. I thought I'd offer another perspective for Clinton supporters who think their candidate is superior to Obama because of her tepid approach to health care reform.

A tidbit: Medicare For All promises to use the savings from eliminating private insurance, the inefficiencies of which amount to 400 billion dollars (overhead and profit), to fund coverage for all of those who currently don't have health care. It is a revenue neutral solution.


On health care. (0.00 / 0)
I agree with you about single payer.  I also think Clinton's reform plan is the best one out there right now, and I think Clinton is best positioned to argue in the general election, and as president, that universal health care is important.  The way Obama has chosen to criticize Clinton's plan (bringing back Harry and Louise, criticizing 'mandates') really paints him into a corner as a GE candidate and as president when it comes to health care.  

[ Parent ]
Thanks, Anna (4.00 / 1)
I appreciate your perspective.  I'm a strong Obama supporter but I'm annoyed at and embarrassed by my co-supporters who emphasize Hillary's negatives instead of Barack's positives, and sometimes do so in sexist and offensive ways.  I definitely respect your arguments on her strengths.  However, as a candidate I think it's clear that he's run a better campaign than she has.  I wish she'd dumped Mark Penn long ago--I think things could have been different.

Appreciated. (4.00 / 1)
I really appreciate and understand your perspective, Anna.  I am incredibly frustrated by my fellow Obama supporters who constantly deride Clinton, especially since so little of it is based on fact and is just blatant opinion.  It seems to be the popular thing to do, and I think this type of mindset is unhealthy for the party.  Personally, I love hearing Senator Clinton speak, because I am consistently impressed by how intelligent and informed she is about everything.  I agree with the vast majority of her stances, too.  I have a considerable respect for her background and knowledge; I've just come to the conclusion personally to support Obama for a variety of reasons.  All things considered, they're not as different as some folks would have us believe; they stand side by side on almost every issue.  Ultimately, it's nice to hear considerate thoughts from someone who disagrees with me.  I enjoy the opportunity to see the other side and evoke some civil debate among supports.  Thanks very much.

ONCE AGAIN...... (1.00 / 1)
anna coulton tells us she's for Billary.  AGAIN!  But really, anna, how many times is enough for you Billlary supporters?  I DEFINITELY wouldn't include pictures in your future tirades.  Why?  Examin them!  Billary's supporters  (all except the guy sleeping to the right) ALL look like they haven't had a bowel movement in a month!  Them folks are in PAIN!  Now, look at the Obama crowd.  They're smiling, laughing, having F-U-N!  Billary DOES  that to people.  And Obama does what he does!  I for one do NOT want four years of constipated/bitchy country!  I want humor, intelligence, and HOPE!  Sorry,  anna coulton, but  I'M INSANE FOR HUSSEIN!

Larry (4.00 / 1)
You are out of line.  And you aren't pulling any points for your team with that kind of behavior.

You will never get it, will you?


[ Parent ]
Out of line? (1.00 / 1)
Give me a break!  How am I out of line?  What specifically was it that went "out of line"?  And "my team"?  If the truth be a team, then I'm on that one!  I happen to think, which is my own opinion, that Cliton supporters are doing WAY more to hurt the party than my measely little posts.  Don't you? But hey, lectures by youngsters who have really done nothing in their lives are allowed.  It's the Missoula way!

[ Parent ]
Out of Line (4.00 / 2)
Cliton = sexist (and stupid)

Clinton supporters look constipated = fricking moronic.

anna coulton = Ad Hominem and weak.

Hurling insults at Clinton supporters may not hurt "the party", but it sure as the hell hurts them.  That isn't what "the party" is about, now is it?  

Yeah, Larry, you're out of line.  And you're gonna have a hard time calling me a youngster.


[ Parent ]
Hahahaha! (1.00 / 1)
Yeah, comin' from you, that's REAL funny!  

[ Parent ]
"youngesters who have really done nothing in their lives" (4.00 / 1)
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you say that, Larry.  I impact your life.  Make no mistake.  

[ Parent ]
Thank you jhwygirl... (4.00 / 2)
I am a big supporter of Senator Obama, but neither Anna (nor anyone for that matter) deserves this type of language because of her support for a particular candidate.  I don't know if he thinks he is funny or if he really believes he is adding something to the debate.  It is really getting tired and I know that the Obama campaign would not appreciate or condone this type of "support."

[ Parent ]
Thanks (4.00 / 1)
both fishin'for an answer and WULFGAR!  

Calling me a youngster is kinda funny, actually.

I don't know he thinks either.  Been trying to figure that out for a while.  But it is getting old, and I'm tired of it.

That being said - Larry, did you really equate a Hillary presidency as "bitchy"? Seriously?

I'm getting to the point with you that I'm just about ready to drive up there and tell you what I have to say face-to-face.  You are that maddening.  What keeps me from doing it is a little voice in my head that says you aren't worth it.

 


[ Parent ]
Thanks for your perspective. (4.00 / 1)
These are the things that I would like to mention.  First of all, the best candidate was John Edwards, but he isn't in the race anymore.  Second, Obama shook a lot of hands while he was in Montana and was very personable.  It's pretty tough to take questions from a crowd of 8,000 people.  

Finally, I believe that Hillary Clinton knows more about specific policy than Barack Obama, but I don't think that necessarily makes her a better candidate or a better leader.  She is very smart but she thus far has not shown me that she is good manager, especially with the many departures from her core staff.

Many of those I spoke to who volunteered to clipboard at both events mentioned that the crowd at the Obama event was much more receptive.  Apparently some people at the Clinton event would not even take fliers for FMT's House Calls 4 Health Care event.  So why is that?  Clinton is a policy wonk and Obama is an organizer and that really is obvious when you look at the differences in their campaigns.

I'm not supporting Obama because I don't think Hillary is qualified.  I'm supporting Obama because he will provide a better environment for a grassroots movement, which, as a progressive, I believe is the only way we can heal this country.  You are right that Hillary is a brilliant person, but that doesn't automatically make her the best President.


I was also an Edwards supporter. (4.00 / 1)
Just to make that clear!  

Regarding the clipboarders: Many (if not most) of the Clinton folks had been at Obama the day before.  I turned down the clipboard folks because I'd already signed up for things I was interested in on Saturday.  


[ Parent ]
Ok, Matt. You brought it up. (0.00 / 0)
"(Another perspective on the visits (that may provide some insight for Obama fans on how to talk to those with whom they disagree). - promoted by Matt Singer)"

There are some subtle touches that Anna uses in her writing about Obama:

"Do you know what she has done with trade in South America?" I said "yes, do you know about the trade agreement with Peru that Obama supported?"

What is left unsaid is that Clinton also supported HR3688 (The Peru Trade agreement). Though both her and Obama declined to show up for the final vote due to "scheduling conflicts." Trade policy is a huge issue, and not one unraveled through a handful of campaign sound bites or blog blurbs. (Credit Nancy Pelosi for having the guts to stand up to Bush today, and his attempt to ram the Columbian trade agreement down Congress's throat. Tomorrow's vote to do away with fast track rules is the single-most progressive move on trade in a long time.)

Then we have the building of strawmen:

"When considering Obama's campaign rhetoric, I mostly wonder what will happen when he lets his supporters down when he's president - which will undoubtedly happen, because a number of his supporters literally see him as some kind of extra-human force in politics (a woman sitting next to me said "This is just like hearing Martin Luther King, Jr speak!"  Uhh, no) [why can't a person make a statement of comparison without judging her for it?]. It seems like people will either become angry and disillusioned (historians suggest this occurred in the 60s as a result of JFK and LBJ's failed policies) or they'll find some excuse for every misstep he makes."
emphasis and insertion added

And then tearing them down:

"I don't think either of these things are really good for the country."

I don't know why the term "old-line Democrats" has to seem disrespectful. The history of political movements in Montana, and evolution of the Democratic party often makes such distinctions (I can see Charles Johnson writing about them in this way). Williams and Juneau may even take pride (rightfully so) in the designation.

And then we get to the:

" I feel like my point of view is constantly disrespected and is often purposely misconstrued."

At this point I begin to feel that I have to tippy-toe around my criticism unless I offend these sensibilities, as I have no intention to be disrespectful or misconstrue what I read.

Anna, my purpose in dissecting your statement isn't so much to tromp on it, as it is to show that we all come to our perceptions in our own ways, bias included. Other than some of the characterizations I provided above, I find your writing to be pretty well done. And your conclusions follow your arguments very well.

We all can find prejudice in others' writings in support of their candidate, or fault in their treatment of our candidates and supporters. When making statements like "many of the frustrations I feel in this primary... we're tired of being attacked" it is easy to fall into the victim role. I would hope that we could transcend the politics of identity here.

As Obama said when he was asked if he was tough enough for the job: "politics... [are] not tiddlywinks." I might add to that, blogging about politics necessitates a certain amount of thick skin, also.


This and that. (0.00 / 0)
I apologize for the length of this, but you provide a lot of stuff that I should respond to!  

What is left unsaid is that Clinton also supported HR3688 (The Peru Trade agreement). Though both her and Obama declined to show up for the final vote due to "scheduling conflicts." Trade policy is a huge issue, and not one unraveled through a handful of campaign sound bites or blog blurbs.

I understand their positions on trade.  This is example one zillion of Clinton and Obama having essentially the same position and only Clinton being criticized for it.  It's the damnedest thing I've ever seen in my life.  Obama just can't make a mistake!  

I don't know why the term "old-line Democrats" has to seem disrespectful.

It was most certainly meant to be disrespectful.  The old dinosaurs are supporting Clinton (let's forget all of the incredibly important work they've done and will continue to do) while the young hipsters love Obama.  This is a pretty important line of argument for Obama's campaign - the old school Dem machine is on Clinton's side (and they are part of the problem in politics - again - forget all the important work they've done), while he represents something new and different.  

90% of the discussions I have surrounding this primary are in person, with people I know in real life, so my comments about being tired of being attacked aren't really directed at anyone here...generally.  I've said this before, but in my previous position as a committeewoman for the Democrats, I've been asked to take sides in primaries, I've often done so, and I've often taken heat for it.  I don't mind having a minority opinion within the party, but something about the type of criticism I've received as a Clinton supporter is different.  It's nastier and it's more personal, and I've seen it in person and online.  I'm not playing the victim when I point that out.  

Hillary Clinton has not been treated fairly.  Period.  Not by the media, not by political pundits, and not by a lot of Democrats.  I believe some (SOME) of that has to do with sexism that is pretty deeply ingrained in our society.  As a woman, I take that personally, and I'm not playing the victim when I point that out, either.  


[ Parent ]
Anna, I've just got to call you on this (0.00 / 0)
Google up "old-line democrats" and you'll find a range of writings on it, most of them positive or neutral. I was struck by this one in particular from Susan Brooks Thistlethwait in the Washington Post on Gospel Politics:

"The Jesus who is recruiting from among the ranks of the economically disenfranchised would clearly be a Democrat. And not a "new Democrat" but one of the old line Democrats who knew that working class folks were the backbone both of the party and of the country and that the struggle for decent wages and working conditions is the bedrock of democracy."

I'll repeat, that many democrats identify positively with being "old-line" maybe even moreso if someone from Kos referred to them that way. And beside that, I thought it was a big tent, with all the variety of democrats welcome, old-line included. There are plenty of references to old line dem constituents playing important roles in Obama's campaign, also.

And when you say only Clinton is being criticized for her trade positions, both her AND Obama have been criticized for the Peru trade agreement. Here's some criticism of Obama: Daily Kos: Obama Supports Peru Trade Pact that Unions and Many Progressives Oppose; and Truthout: Why on Earth Are Hillary and Obama Supporting Pro-Corporate Trade Deals? And there's many more Obama criticisms along these lines.

When you say:

"but something about the type of criticism I've received as a Clinton supporter is different.  It's nastier and it's more personal, and I've seen it in person and online. "

And combine that with some of the other perceptions I get from your writings, I can see that you have a colored view of Clinton and her campaign. There are many many reasons why people don't like the Clinton's, and I can reel off a list of them (Hillary's "What didn't you like about the 90's? The peace, or the prosperity? notwithstanding), but none of them have anything to do with her being a woman. People's dislike for Hillary Clinton is no different in tenor from other's dislike of political candidates from George Bush, to Jimmy carter, to Richard Nixon. It is easy for passionate supporters of any candidate to transfer the dislike of the candidate by others to themselves.

I'll be the first to admit that America is still racist and sexist (and agist, and...). This campaign has proven over and over that america is having trouble coming to grips with post-racial and post-gender candidates and campaigns. But as long as we subtly feed the race and gender machines (as have Geraldine Ferraro and Rev. Wright, for instance), then we are still mired in the politics of the past. Hillary is running an historic campaign, and breaking through the gender barrier. This is uncharted territory, and when we combine that with an historic racial campaign, all the rule books have been thrown out and are getting rewritten. And it will be years down the road, probably in the next election cycle, when we can truly look back and see just how far we've come.

Obama and Clinton, in their own ways want us to raise up and look to the future. So when I see some of your references to perceived (or real) inequity through a jaundiced eye, I have to take it with a grain of salt. Obama said that he had no illusions that one election cycle would serve to clear the air about a post-racial campaign. I would offer that the same holds true for a post-gender campaign.


[ Parent ]
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